fear of dismissal

chocoholic24

goonarmy wrote: »

That is unreasonable. Who better to say your sick than a professional that diagonoses illness for a living, who are they to question that? Is your union checking for the legalities of this?

My union advised as long as the medical note is in english and has a doctors details on it (name contact details etc) then its valid .. my company didnt know what to say when i told them this info..

Tahlullah

I think you need to get hold of a copy of the company disciplinary procedure. You have a right to ask for it and they cannot refuse to give it to you. Then, look to see if they have followed procedure. A company cannot normally hold an investigation without prior notice.

if they can try to not pay SSP, then they are capable of not following their own procedures. This lack of following policy will help your case.

mum2one

It sounds like there dragging it on, they may still try to go for gross misconduct, but they have to give you notice of the meetings, I sued my ex-employer for unfair constructive dismissal (I resigned due to their actions) but at the same time they sacked a fellow manager for gross misconduct, - she went to tribunal as well, and won the case - as at her final meeting they brought up a new offence, where as they can only go on what they originally had the meeting over. She was told she was 50% responsible and her payout was reduced accordingly.

You are in a stronger position than i was as you have a union, I would def get the union to deal with this and ask for representation of a union rep.x

goonarmy

chocoholic24 wrote: »

My union advised as long as the medical note is in english and has a doctors details on it (name contact details etc) then its valid .. my company didnt know what to say when i told them this info..

That makes perfect sense and once its signed does it not hold some sort of legal binding?

jobbingmusician

Let's get this right.

My understanding is that a company can call you in for an investigation at any notice or none. However, for a disciplinary, they HAVE to give you reasonable notice, in order for you to arrange for any accompanying person you may be bringing. AND they have to tell you of your right to be accompanied. 24 hours' notice is not enough, and you can respond by asking for time to arrange for a [STRIKE]friend[/STRIKE] colleague or union rep to accompany you.

I don't have a reference for my first statement/belief, but it seems commonsense to me that if an employer has to investigate something urgently, it may need doing immediately, and without tipping off a suspect that the investigation is about to happen. Comments welcome please

With regard to the second:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/trade-union-rights/trade-unions/grievance-hearings/page16831.html

http://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/basic-rights-work/c-your-basic-rights/08-right-be-accompanied/right-be-accompanied

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_problems_at_work_e/work_disciplinary_meetings_e/who_can_accompany_you_to_a_disciplinary_meeting.htm

Tahlullah

It depends on what the disciplinary procedure for the organisation says. Some are more generous than others, giving notification of investigations, rights to be accompanied by work colleagues and union reps etc, which is why you need a copy of the companys disciplinary procedure and that is the one to follow. If the company does not have one, then the ACAS code of practice should be followed, as this is the minimum by statute. If the company procedure offers less than the ACAS code, then the ACAS code should be followed.

Not many disciplinary procedures allow friends. The friend may be from outside the company, a solicitor etc, so they restrict it to work colleague or union rep. Unless the disciplinary procedure says otherwise.

Advisernet offers far more detail than Adviceguide. Adviceguide is the abridged version.

jobbingmusician

Agreed - apologies, I should have written colleague, not friend. Thank you

marybelle01

This probably isn't what you want to hear - stick it out and stick with your union. Good on you for being in one - now let them do the slog.


I have to say that I have something of a vast and unfortunate experience of "foreign sick notes" - vast in terms of the fact that I have seen a lot of them, and unfortunate in terms of the fact that some doctors lie - a lot! When you have had the same employee take two weeks leave and suddenly be sick for four weeks after and unable to travel - for FIVE years running - you get a little suspicious!!!


You have three years service (so enough to claim unfair dismissal), it happened once and you have the evidence that it happened. You can produce evidence from your travel agent about the dates you booked originally. And you have a union on your side. That's about as good as it gets.


Suspension aside (it really isn't relevant), if they can prove that they have a reasonable belief that you are lying, then they can dismiss. But everything you have said you have as evidence says they can't show reasonable belief, so if they dismiss then your union ought to be supporting a tribunal claim for unfair dismissal.

sew109

Surely there is some evidence from the airline and or insurance company or even credit card payment for changing the flight, maybe you have the bill for additional accom or changes to return cab from the airport or additional parking fees or something. regardless of whether you should have to provide these doing so would make you life easier.

I had a lad that worked for me who requested four weeks off and I agreed two, I heard nothing and he turned up four weeks later at first he said that their had been a plane strike then when I phoned the airline (pre internet) and they said there had been no strike he told me he was too ill to travel and came in two days later with a locally issued sick note. I wanted to sack him HR would not let me they sacked him about 2 years afterwards for threatening another member of staff and he tried to sue for unfair dismissal !!!

Tahlullah

U

marybelle01 wrote: »

Suspension aside (it really isn't relevant), if they can prove that they have a reasonable belief that you are lying, then they can dismiss. But everything you have said you have as evidence says they can't show reasonable belief, so if they dismiss then your union ought to be supporting a tribunal claim for unfair dismissal.

Of course if you have been suspended or not is relevant. It is extremely relevant. It proves how seriously the employer believes the misdemeanour to be. If you are not suspended, they don't think it major.

That said, an employer can dismiss if they so choose, but the question is if they did it correctly. Is it a wrongful dismissal.

Failure to follow their own policies and procedures is what helps the case. Noone has denied that there probably will be a dismissal, even the op recognises that. What we are however trying to do is give her ammunition with which to argue her case, should she so wish. And the fact that the employer is treating something in one manner and acting in another helps.

The op wants a decent reference and the ability to walk away without threat of reprisal. Unless the employers are going to be nice about this, which I doubt, she is going to need something with which to negotiate. And that something is to know that they have failed to follow their own procedures, and so the threat of tribunal (should she wish to go that far) may be enough for the employer to acquiesce.

It is up to the op what they want to do, but I do agree she should use her Union. But to use them successfully, you have to understand your own case, which is what she is attempting to do on this forum.

The question is should her union be arguing unfair or wrongful dismissal. In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, she has less negotiating strength with unfair, because employers can dismiss, and then be found to have been wrong, but the belief at the time made the reason for the dismissal fair. A mistaken belief reasonably held is fair. But, if they got the procedure wrong, it's wrong, and nothing can detract from that.