Civil PCN Received - circumstances not straightforward.

LikesWhisky

Hopefully there are some parking experts reading this, and I’m asking please for your help.

A Civil Parking Charge Notice was received from a BPA member using in/out ANPR recording at a supermarket car park. The driver overstayed by 40 minutes. The allowed time was one hour thirty minutes. We have the supermarket receipt for over £100. One of the vehicle occupants had a blue badge that was displayed once parked. That person stayed in the vehicle while their spouse did the shopping. The time printed on the supermarket receipt was 30 minutes prior to the time given on the exit photo at the car park.

I’m aware of updated advice that I must respond to the notice. So:

- Could the PPC rightfully decline the appeal because the vehicle stayed longer than necessary in their client’s car park?

- Before committing to an explanation for the 30 minutes between time of till receipt and exit time leaving the car park, is there any advice please about wording the appeal? This forum has recorded hundreds of POPLA decisions, and it would appear that attending to the needs of a disabled person is not an acceptable reason for overstay in a car park. What about time spent calling into another shop on the site?

- The PPC state that the registered keeper has responsibility under Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 Act of either paying this outstanding parking charge or divulging the driver details. Having researched the forums it appears this is not correct, and that there might be advantage in not divulging the driver. However, the PPC requires any and all validating documents with the initial appeal, and since in this case the blue badge owner (male) is not the registered keeper (female) it seems pointless being coy about driver identity. Have I thought this through correctly?

- I’m not clear about whether a blue badge gives any rights on private land. It seems this may be ruled applicable or not, depending on terms listed in site notices at the car park. We shop regularly at this supermarket but are some distance from the site and not scheduled to visit until after the appeal date. I telephoned the supermarket head office but they didn’t appear to have the detailed T&C’s of parking. They say I have to deal with the PPC. Is a journey necessary to the site to see what they state about blue badges, or is this aspect a red herring?

What should be said in the appeal to the PPC, and what should not be said? The usual rule in matters like this is ‘least said the better’ unless sure of legal rules. I’ve seen template letters/appeals that quote case law, but every case is different, and a particular quote might not be relevant to my case. It seems a good idea that the PCC should not be encouraged into spinning this along because the appellant appears ill informed.

Thank you for your help.

Redx

the BB is a red herring as it was used on private land, the EQUALITY ACT 2010 applies but as the BB holder remained in the vehicle it wasnt even relevant (neither should they have parked in a BB type bay if the holder wasnt getting out - if that is where they actually parked)

never reveal the driver identity to the ppc or anyone at stage one

If you have not done so, read the NEWBIES - READ THIS now sticky thread at the top of this forum, 4th one down , that tells you all you need to know about this, and a simple soft appeal to the PPC is all that is initially needed, from the RK only , saying cancel or popla code

obviously complain the the landowner too, that is the quickest way to get the charge cancelled

an overstay is not a crime, even if its aldi (the 90 minute rule may indicate its aldi) - so if its aldi complain to aldi direct using the info in that sticky thread

any so called "case law" is reserved for the popla appeal, as mitigation is not a grounds for an appeal, they do not accept mitigation and have never upheld an appeal based on mitigation to my knowledge

the BB issues seem a red herring to me seeing as they stayed within the vehicle, so do not seem relevant to me

others may have a different viewpoint however

ps:- generally, the PPC will refuse the soft appeal, so then you go to POPLA

hope this helps

Redx

your initial "rebuttal" response should include some degree of explanation as to why the delay happened due to a long shop in the shops on site and any other delays due to the BB holder in the vehicle (where necessary). It should also include a photocopy or scan of the till receipt too, as proof of shopping "on site"

then it needs something like this as well , altered to suit but keeping the main points, never revealing the driver no matter what they say

Dear parking


In reference to the invoice xxxxxx, and your letters of (date). As the registered keeper of the vehicle, I've decided to deal with this myself for now, and not name the driver at this stage as I am entitled to this under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

I wish to ask you to cancel this charge or to forward the popla verification code so a more detailed appeal can be made there. The intention is to appeal mainly but not solely on the following grounds

1) The charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) Your signage is inadequate and does not comply with the bpa Code of Practice
3) You do not have authority or contract to issue these invoices

As you know popla upholds all appeals on the above, so you are invited to cancel this invoice now

Sincerely

The keeper

HO87

Now, dealing solely with your questions:

1. A PPC can decline to accept your appeal and I'd bet a pound to a pinch that that is what will happen. However, getting that rejection - and the POPLA reference that goes with it - is the objective. We have a 100% record with guided appeals to POPLA - so stay around.

2. PPC's have to fulfil all requirements of the Act in order to pursue the registered keeper of a vehicle for something only the driver could conceivably be held liable for in other circumstances. There is absolutely no requirement that you divulge the details of the driver and our standard advice is that you don't. A PPC cannot compel you to do so.

3. As has been said the BB issue is something of a red herring. In such settings it is the Equality Act which has greater impact but that is not entirely relevant as the disabled person did not make use of the facilities beyond sitting in the vehicle in the car park.

4. As for your appeal you could try the following wording but do not send in your appeal until such time as you receive a Notice to Keeper (could be as long as 56+ days after the issue of the PCN).

PPC Ltd
Any Street
Anytown

Dear Sirs

Re: Notice to Keeper, dated <date>

I refer to the above issued by yourselves which appears to relate to a parking event at <time>, <date> against which I wish to appeal.

For the avoidance of doubt I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question.

It is my contention that:

a) No debt is owed.
b) The charge you are attempting to levy is in reality an unenforceable penalty.
c) In the alternative, the charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss
d) You do not have rights or authority or sufficient rights or authority to offer contracts or to enforce charges

Please either accept my appeal and cancel the charge forthwith or provide me with a POPLA reference with your rejection.

Should you reject my appeal or in any event you do not immediately withdraw this charge I shall hold you liable for my reasonable costs incurred in defending this matter. I must advise you that should you continue to pursue the matter you will be deemed to have accepted your liability for these costs by performance. You should now consider yourselves on notice.

Yours faithfully

EDIT: There need not be any further explanation whatsoever - indeed it is entirely sensible to provide a minimum of information. Any extraneous details can and will be seized upon by PPC's. The objective here is to obtain that POPLA code - and then win at POPLA.

Redx

sorry to mention this, but I had assumed" that the OP had already received the NTK charge in the post , probably within the 14 day rule, so should be acting on it within that shorter timescale (28 days ? )

however , if its a windscreen pcn, then yes the OP should wait for up to 56 days for the NTK to arrive , but not wait if its a postal pcn NTK that was first issued

hope that clarifies matters

Coupon-mad

''it seems pointless being coy about driver identity.''


I disagree and so do most people here. Your POPLA appeal stage is strongest as the keeper. If this was a postal PCN or Notice to Keeper, in England/Wales, the Keeper should appeal as shown above by other posters. And as shown in a dozen links in the 'Newbies Read this First!' sticky thread.

nigelbb

The OP states that "A Civil Parking Charge Notice was received from a BPA member using in/out ANPR recording at a supermarket car park." so unless this particular BPA member has started issuing real time tickets while the car is still in the car park then this must have been a Notice To Keeper.

nigelbb

Coupon-mad wrote: »

''it seems pointless being coy about driver identity.''


I disagree and so do most people here. Your POPLA appeal stage is strongest as the keeper. If this was a postal PCN or Notice to Keeper, in England/Wales, the Keeper should appeal as shown above by other posters. And as shown in a dozen links in the 'Newbies Read this First!' sticky thread.

If it actually comes to a court case then if the driver & the registered keeper are the same person then it's pointless being coy about driver identity even if the NTK is not compliant. However if the PPC were pursuing the keeper but they were not the driver and can prove that they were not then a non compliant NTK would be fatal to the PPC's case. Not revealing the identity of the driver puts the onus on the PPC to pursue keeper liability and they usually mess this up.

LikesWhisky

Thank you Redx, HO87, Coupon-mad and nigelbb

I used the word ‘pointless’ because the RK and BB holder are different sexes, apparent in RK info and on the BB if a copy is sent on appeal. Thinking further, the PPC doesn’t know how many in vehicle so maybe not as revealing as first thought. I read through the sticky threads before posting and started this new thread to explore particulars of this case. Thank you all for the input.

Yes, a postal notice to keeper has been received and appeal deadline is imminent.

It wasn’t a disabled space that was used on this occasion because they were occupied. The disabled person can require stretching outside the vehicle or taking to facilities. Sometimes goes into this supermarket on scooter carried in vehicle. Their needs change by the hour, so I would argue that actual behaviour on the day not relevant but that their presence in the car park IS relevant. Could BB qualification & ownership provide argument under equality legislation that would allow time over the 90 min rule?

The any and all stipulation for evidence at the PPC initial appeal strongly indicates that I cannot introduce additional supportive material later – that’s why I’m planning on sending a copy of BB now. But as mentioned above, it does reveal extra info. Does POPLA accept additional evidence not used at the PPC appeal?

This car park and shopping are on different levels, only one shopping trolley elevator was working, called briefly into another shop, car park serves other shops but is apparently owned by supermarket, this is THE car park in town centre location, disabled person needed attention when driver returned to vehicle, so lots of reasons for delay.

The easy response from the PPC is to say the till receipt shows a 30 min delay before leaving the car park, so payment required. Many reasons in explanation but which are relevant and carry legal significance?


Thanks again for all your help.

Redx

the EQUALITY ACT 2010 (not the BB) covers the fact that you had extenuating circumstances (mitigation) and can account for a longer stay, no question

the PPC appeal can be short and sweet giving nothing away, but they may take the mitigation into account and cancel the ticket , as may the landowner too , so yes put that in your appeals to them both

POPLA will take a longer and better appeal from you, so save the ammunition until later on, dont use up your bullets with the PPC

you could even threaten them with an MCOL if you are successful with your popla appeal if it goes that far, so put that in your soft appeal , base it as biased towards the equality act 2010 - why not ? its all more for your side

nobody here cares who the driver is or their gender, just reply as registered keeper only, no I DID this or she did that, just THE DRIVER DID THIS blah blah or THE DRIVER WAS DELAYED BECAUSE blah blah

Coupon-mad

''Could BB qualification & ownership provide argument under equality legislation that would allow time over the 90 min rule?''


Yes, I would include it, myself. So I would put:



PPC Ltd
Any Street
Anytown

Dear Sirs

Re: Notice to Keeper, dated <date> ref xxxxxxxxx

I refer to the above issued by yourselves which appears to relate to a parking event at <time>, <date> against which I wish to appeal.

For the avoidance of doubt I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question.

It is my contention that:

a) No debt is owed.
b) The charge you are attempting to levy is in reality an unenforceable penalty.
c) In the alternative, the charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss
d) You do not have rights or authority or sufficient rights or authority to offer contracts or to enforce charges
e) The passenger on this occasion was a Blue Badge Holder and as such, an arbitrary time limit cannot be imposed as that would be a breach of the Equality Act 2010. Blue Badge copy attached.

Please either accept my appeal and cancel the charge forthwith or provide me with a POPLA reference with your rejection.

Should you reject my appeal or in any event you do not immediately withdraw this charge I shall hold you liable for my reasonable costs incurred in defending this matter. I must advise you that should you continue to pursue the matter you will be deemed to have accepted your liability for these costs by performance. You should now consider yourselves on notice.

Yours faithfully


THE REGISTERED KEEPER'S NAME