My dogs recall is rubbish....

joansgirl

....when there's food involved, or, as in this case, something she thinks is food. She's taken scavenging to a new low this week. On Friday morning we were out for our usual walk round the lake when suddenly she shot off through a gap in the hedge, ran across the lane (no cars), through a tiny gap in the chain-link fence opposite and up the embankment which leads to the waste ground. I could see her through the fence, sniffing and rummaging around on the ground but no amount of calling or throwing biscuits in her direction would get her attention. So, I had to squeeze (and I mean squeeze) through the same hole she went through to go and get her. By the time I got through she'd moved further up the embankment and was showing far too much interest in something on the ground. When I got there I discovered, to my horror, that she'd found a deer carcass! There was just the head, some hide and a few bones but she was determined not to give it up and was growling as I approached. Fortunately what with all the rain we'd had the hide was soaked through and it was too heavy for her to lift so I stood on it and grabbed her collar. To give her her due she realised she'd lost this particular battle and dropped it straight away. Then we had to fight our way out of all the brambles and bushes (completely overgrown in this part) to try to get onto one of the paths that run across. We couldn't go back the way we'd come as the slope of the embankment was too steep for me to duck through the gap in the fence.


How do I combat this? I don't honestly think there's a solution other than to keep her on the lead all the time. 99% of the time she's as good as gold but just occasionally something like this happens. The other week it was a dead pheasant she got hold of and it took 2 of us to get it off her. I've tried carrying smelly "tasty" treats but it seems nothing can compete with the smell of decomp!


Do Labs ever grow out of the food orientation or is it just a fantasy of mine?

krlyr

Kikopup (i.e. Emily Larlham) does some fab training videos on Youtube which include teaching a solid 'leave it' from food
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEeS2dPpPtA

As well as a recall from distractions (including food)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5qsH5tjYA

If you feel she's ignored the recall command a lot in the past, you may wish to teach a new recall with a new verbal cue. "Come", or whatever you use now, may have become "Come back to me once you've investigated that dead pheasant" - whereas you could train the above recall with a new word such as "Here"

I would initially prevent her being able to practice this behaviour though whilst you're training the leave it and recall - it's a self-rewarding behaviour so the more food she eats when failing to recall, the more she'll know to do it in the future. I'd stick to a lead for now, but once you've mastered the 'leave it' you could switch to a longline, which could eventually be ditched once you've proofed the recall (remember you can transition to this by leaving a longline attached but trailing on the ground)


Longterm, as well as having retaught the commands, I would say remember to keep your walks interesting to your dog, so that your dog doesn't seek entertainment elsewhere - so you may be able to prevent her going after the scent of food or dead animals in the first place by engaging more with her and creating games between you and her, rather than her creating them with the environment. So playing 'toss the treat' into long grass (making sure she sees that it's come from you), hiding a scented toy for her to find (you can buy rabbit fur toys if that's the kind of thing that would interest her), having a random training session in the middle of the park - be unexpected, be exciting, ultimately a dog wants to do the most rewarding course of action so make it more rewarding to stay with you and pay attention to what you're doing, rather than sniffing through undergrowth.

joansgirl

Thanks Krlyr, good advise. Problem at the moment is most walks are in the dark. And yesterday when the Deer thing happened we were actually playing with a punctured football together. It's like in the blink of an eye she's off. On the lead she knows leave it, drop it etc and she gets rewarded when she obeys, which is most of the time and also off lead she's really good as well, most of the time. I did notice yesterday she didn't put up as much of a fight as she has before so maybe she is learning. I just wish I could find something that's as appealing to her as a dead body. That bit you mentioned about treats in the long grass seems like a good idea. Maybe she'll think a biscuit in the hand is worth more than a carcass in the bush. It's such a hair trigger when she goes though, it's almost like radar and she homes in on stuff before you've got a chance to distract or intercept her. She's going to have to stay on the lead all the time soon anyway as hopefully she'll come into season soon so maybe I'll get her into practice.

krlyr

Even if you think she knows the commands, it may be worth reminding her and doing some proofing - ideally a dog should practice a command so well that it's almost an involuntary muscle memory, rather than deciding whether to do it or not. Don't forget to practice commands like recall randomly too - if you only ever do it when she's spotted something to scavenge or roll in, she'll get smart to it. Call her back to you when she's been doing nothing of any interest, randomly recall her to you in the house or garden and so on.

Kikopup also does several attention exercises and self-control exercises, these could all be well worth doing just to build on her behavioural generally, which will help in the more specific situations like finding a dead animal.

It could possibly even be worth working with this instinct instead of against it. For example, dogs with high prey drives can be taught to redirect their desire to chase onto a ball, with the idea they'll recall away from a rabbit (for example) onto the ball because you've made the ball the more exciting option. Teaching your dog some scentwork could work - instead of sniffing out dead animals, making it more rewarding to sniff out some articles you've pre-planted in the undergrowth could work.


I would just say, be very careful walking her when in season even when on-lead. It's not just her running off that you have to worry about, but males running over to her can be an issue too, and one that having her on-lead may not necessarily prevent.

GoldenShadow

I feel your pain on this. My golden retriever would see a bird in the sky and chase it. And I don't mean chase it, circle, then come back. I mean he would run for miles if he could still see it. He would leap over five bar gates to hunt rabbits etc.

Now, at 5 years old..! He's really very good. The fact your dog is so food oriented is actually really good, should make retraining a bit easier

First and foremost, do not allow her to chase anything. If you are not 100% certain that things like deer/other wildlife are NOT around, do not let her off. By letting it occur you let her think its acceptable. You can't justifiably tell a dog off when it goes to chase because 9 times out of 10 once they start that's it, good luck calling them off. You have to get in first and if you get ignored the first time there is really no point in trying again (trust me, been there!).

Regarding scavenging, how bad is she onlead? There are some wicked people about who leave horrible stuff on the floor and I was going to basket muzzle my golden at one point (steroids for a skin condition = super greedy). That could be an idea of a stop gap perhaps just to avoid her eating anything that could do her harm if you can't get in there first.

Something I found was important was not to talk to my dog as much on walks I talk to them ALL the time and so they generally stop listening to what I say. Literally give commands and praise but don't just dish commands out for no reason. Fewer commands = better attention span I find, less likely to get bored of you asking things too.

What breed is your dog by the way, does she like retrieving?

You need some higher value treats than biscuits I reckon. Arden Grange do this liver paste, and Primula squeezy cheese is quite popular. Mine get bits of kibble and usually something with a squishy texture like liver cake/tuna cake/Misfits sometimes too..!

It will be a slow process and personally, I would put your girl back on lead/training line (ie. 50ft lead) unless you are 100% confident the coast is clear in the bit you are at of your walk. I don't just let mine off anymore, they get let off 1) when I know they're listening and 2) I know the coast is clear of wildlife. Rupert will always be a chaser, but he is SUCH a good boy and will look to me when he sees something to chase ready for a command. At one point I even conditioned him to sit when wildlife shot out of the bushes, something I never thought I could expect of him.

Will post a bit more about what I did with my lad and how I retrained him if you would find it helpful?

krlyr

OP says dog is a Lab - I think they may know a bit about retrieving, possibly :rotfl:

joansgirl

Hi Golden Shadow. Yes as Krlyr says she's a Lab. I know what they're like coz previous to her I had 2 Goldies, so I feel your pain:rotfl:

She doesn't chase anything, she's really good that way it's just as soon as she gets the scent of anything she thinks might have been food at some point, she's gone. Even if she was previously occupied doing something she loves.

Onlead she will still go after stuff she finds but does "leave" and "drop it" when told. And like you I don't speak unless I need to coz as you said it gets ignored after a while (a bit like a child).

I personally don't think the food orientation will ever disappear and I need to be prepared to deal with the consequences, like the deer carcass. It's just really annoying that now she can't go off the lead in yet another place we walk.

trolleyrun

I feel your pain! I've had my (rescue) terrier mix for over a year and her recall is terrible. I've tried everything in and out of the book. I mean I've tried absolutely everything. She still disappears, so I only let her off in the fenced in playing field once a week now. She knows she can't get out of there, so I'm happy to let her off (depending who else is there).

I will try again in a couple of months, but for now she stays on the lead. Good luck - hope you have success soon

Lieja

My dog is recall-less too when it suits it him, which is about 95% of the time. I'm picky about where he gets let off his lead and we have had a few 'carcass issues', and I've found that the only thing that distracts him from them is to keep him constantly engaged while he's off lead so he's too preoccupied to notice. I think every dog is different so there's only really you who'll know what might work. My boy is totally focused on playing games above anything else, including food, which means I can distract him with a game but if there's another dog to play with his recall is non-existent even if I'm holding a slab of steak!

joansgirl

I've tried really hard to get her interested in a ball but she just looks at me as if to say "I'm not flippin' chasing that". She does like sticks but only ones that she chooses. If I give her a stick that I think is suitable she turns her nose up. She likes really massive sticks. More like half a tree actually. If it's too big for her to carry then she'll drag it. Once she's in this frame of mind I have no worries about scavenging at all coz all her attention is on the stick. But we don't always come across one that meets her exacting standards. And when she does get the scent of something there's no standing sniffing the air. She's like an Excocet missile and homes in on it in a split second.


Dogs, gotta love 'em!

Lieja

My boy isn't interested in balls or sticks either. His favourite game involves chasing, being chased, finding someone who's hiding, and a disproportionate amount of leaping.

He looks at me like I'm mad if I throw a stick or a ball for him.