Deposit return at end of long tenancy

weeg

We just had an offer accepted on a flat. Yay! And this being Scotland it's unlikely to go pear shaped/ drag on. So my partner is about to give notice on his rented flat, which is why I'm seeking advice here.

He's been there 10 years (rolling tenancy). The flat was unfurnished and the LA and LL are both aware he smokes. It's been inspected every 6 months. And is in a totally unlettable condition.

It wasn't newly painted when he moved in 10 years ago, the carpets weren't new, nor was the kitchen, oven or stove. The fridge is his and is being skipped. The washing machine ditto, if we can get it out without damaging the units (it's a really tight fit). The bathroom isn't properly ventilated and is mouldy (the LA are aware of this). And the flat is just grotty.

Frankly, the flat is no longer really cleanable. We're happy for them to take money off the deposit for a full clean. And the oven is totally beyond cleaning (cobwebs, mould, not been used in 6 or 7 years). They can actually keep the whole deposit. What worries me is if they come after him for additional costs. After 10 years, how much 'wear and tear' is reasonable for a kitchen? an oven?

Even if he had been the cleanest tenant in the world (he isn't) surely they'd have to gut the place and start again after 10 years, therefore they can't really charge him for redecorating costs? Thoughts and advice, please?

(and the deposit isn't in a scheme - the law in Scotland about protecting deposits isn't retroactive)

pmlindyloo

Yuk - sounds horrible - are you sure you want to move in with this guy?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not meant to sound as horrible as it does!)


No place is uncleanable (is that a real word?!). The question is if the LL is going to gut it then why clean?


A few questions:


Was there an inventory done when he moved in? Was the fact he was allowed to smoke written in the contract or in some written form? Was there any comeback after the 6 month inspections - written report etc etc


To be honest you probably have a good case after 10 years that everything will need redoing at the landlord's expense.


However I hope the landlord is aware of the state of the place and is happy that the LAs allowed it to get into such a state without some notification of repairs needing doing etc etc.


If it were me I would be asking for an inspection to be carried out asap and ask the LA/LL what they are expecting after 10 years. This way you can at least try to minimise any costs yourselves.

weeg

pmlindyloo wrote: »

Yuk - sounds horrible - are you sure you want to move in with this guy?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not meant to sound as horrible as it does!)

I know! He really only sleeps there during the week, as he hates the place too but my flat is too small for us both.


No place is uncleanable (is that a real word?!). The question is if the LL is going to gut it then why clean?


A few questions:


Was there an inventory done when he moved in? Was the fact he was allowed to smoke written in the contract or in some written form? Was there any comeback after the 6 month inspections - written report etc etc

He thinks there was in inventory - but it's so long ago he can't really remember. He thinks it was written down that he's allowed to smoke. He certainly was very clear about the fact he does and the LA has never complained about it. The last inspection report noted it was messy and told him to get the windows cleaned, so he did.


To be honest you probably have a good case after 10 years that everything will need redoing at the landlord's expense.


However I hope the landlord is aware of the state of the place and is happy that the LAs allowed it to get into such a state without some notification of repairs needing doing etc etc.


If it were me I would be asking for an inspection to be carried out asap and ask the LA/LL what they are expecting after 10 years. This way you can at least try to minimise any costs yourselves.

The LAs certainly know about the damp issues. The whole building needs structural work done too (the front wall needs tied back in my educated opinion) and the DPC needs replaced. Frankly, even if he doesn't keep it in great nick, the LL has been damp lucky to keep it let for so long, as no-one else would put up with it without complaining.

Our new flat is beautiful - and only 4 years old, so much easier to keep clean! With his, he kind of gave up as it felt futile trying to keep it decent when it just was awful at the core.

glas

Legally, even in Scotland, the deposit should be in a scheme by now.

The black mould will be the result of poor ventilation, not something a landlord can control as he/she isn't living there. Some people are incapable of having a window open these days...

Sounds like a total cop out on your part to be honest. I very much doubt it is 'uncleanable' as you will find out when the costs of cleaning are deducted from the deposit.

Also, by not making an effort to leave the place in a reasonably clean state, you risk receiving a poor reference in the future.

BobQ

I agree, get the LL and LA to come and have a look and discuss what is reasonable in the circumstances. If the LL/LA digs their heals in and expects the place returned in an immaculate state you will at least have some idea of where you stand.

But a more realistic compromise might be possible (eg I will empty the place a week early, get rid of the rubbish carpets and give the place a basic (ie not professional) clean, you keep the deposit, sort the gas appliances and redecorate). That is just an example but a bit of given and take might sort the problem to both party's satisfaction if the LL is going to re-carpet, re-decorate and replace kitchen anyway.

G_M

glas wrote: »

Legally, even in Scotland, the deposit should be in a scheme by now.

unless the tenancy started (Eng/Wales) pre-2007 and has not become periodic since then......

edit: sorry, just seen it's Scotland (& must take your word that law there is not retrospective)

Guest101

Bear in mind some things will be wear and tear. Carpets lasting longer than ten years would surprise me for example. So it could be less cost than u think

tbs624

OP and partner make the mistake of assuming that things such as the declared state of the oven fall under the heading of "fair wear and tear". There is a distinction to be made between dirt/T laziness and FW&T.

That said, however...........

G_M wrote: »

unless the tenancy started (Eng/Wales) pre-2007 and has not become periodic since then......

edit: sorry, just seen it's Scotland (& must take your word that law there is not retrospective)

My bolding. The OP perhaps needs to check things out more thoroughly. (Have to say the partner sounds like he needs to take some personal responsibility for sorting his own affairs out)

"Please note: The deposit protection legislation is retrospective, meaning it applies to existing deposits as well as future deposits taken. There are different deadlines for when your landlord/agent must lodge your deposit for protection that depend on when the deposit was received." Source: mydepositsscotland

For tenancy deposits received before March 7th 2011 the relevant deadlines are:

Where a tenancy has been renewed, either by express agreement or by tacit relocation, on or after after October 2nd 2012 and before April 2nd 2013, the deposit should have been transferred to a scheme within 30 working days of the renewal.

Otherwise, the transfer to a scheme should have been made by 15th May 2013

weeg

glas wrote: »

Legally, even in Scotland, the deposit should be in a scheme by now.

The black mould will be the result of poor ventilation, not something a landlord can control as he/she isn't living there. Some people are incapable of having a window open these days...

Sounds like a total cop out on your part to be honest. I very much doubt it is 'uncleanable' as you will find out when the costs of cleaning are deducted from the deposit.

Also, by not making an effort to leave the place in a reasonably clean state, you risk receiving a poor reference in the future.

I checked - the deposit IS in a scheme. My mistake.

The mould IS caused by poor ventilation. The extractor is broken and there is no window in the bathroom - so it's really hard to open the window. The other windows are so draughty one barely needs to open them! (but they DO get opened) But the lack of a DPC doesn't help either.

As I said in the OP, we're happy for them to take money from the deposit for a full clean. It's beyond my cleaning ability and both our cleaning inclinations.

And one of the nice things about being a homeowner is not needing or caring about references from old landlords!

tbs624 wrote: »

OP and partner make the mistake of assuming that things such as the declared state of the oven fall under the heading of "fair wear and tear". There is a distinction to be made between dirt/T laziness and FW&T.

That said, however...........

My bolding. The OP perhaps needs to check things out more thoroughly. (Have to say the partner sounds like he needs to take some personal responsibility for sorting his own affairs out)

"Please note: The deposit protection legislation is retrospective, meaning it applies to existing deposits as well as future deposits taken. There are different deadlines for when your landlord/agent must lodge your deposit for protection that depend on when the deposit was received." Source: mydepositsscotland

For tenancy deposits received before March 7th 2011 the relevant deadlines are:

Where a tenancy has been renewed, either by express agreement or by tacit relocation, on or after after October 2nd 2012 and before April 2nd 2013, the deposit should have been transferred to a scheme within 30 working days of the renewal.

Otherwise, the transfer to a scheme should have been made by 15th May 2013

My partner is perfectly capable of sorting his own affairs out - however I am a member of this forum and he isn't, so I thought I'd ask here because I know how knowledgable and helpful folk here can be.

My original question really was concerning - what's the difference between dirt and fair wear and tear, in terms of the deposit?

To clarify: The oven is beyond what either of us is prepared to spend time cleaning. If we need to pay a professional - fine. However, what's the point in paying someone £50 to clean an oven destined for landfill? The landlord has had over 12 years use out of the oven. If he buys a new one, what %age of that new cost could he allocate to the departing tenant of 10 years?

Similarly, the kitchen worktop has been damaged by the boiler dripping on to it for 4 years. The boiler is the responsibility of the landlord. Will he try and allocate replacement worktop costs? And if so, what is likely to be deemed reasonable? (I estimate the fitted kitchen to have been fitted more than 15 years ago)

We're trying to get our ducks in a row. If the LL tries to take the whole £600 deposit AND send us a bill for (say) the oven, we'd like to have our case in order.

00ec25

what you seem to be missing is that the difference between your incoming inventory and outgoing inventory/condition report identifies areas of "damage" which can be deducted from the deposit (and/or claimed for in court if costs > deposit.)

damage in that context is a sum of money paid to the LL in compensation, it does not have to be spent on repairing the damage. therefore if you fail to clean the property to the same standard it was when you moved in the LL can claim the costs of a clean whether such cleaning takes place or not. So the fact you are too lazy to clean the oven will result in the LL being entitled to claim the costs of its clean, even if it does end up in a skip, he is entitled to compensation for your damage to his property

However, the dividing line between wear and tear and damage is obviously a matter of opinion, which is why the deposit schemes have arbitration. for example, a dirty oven is "damage" as it would not have got that way had you acted in a "tenant like manner" and cleaned it as part of your occupation. A 10 year old carpet with flattened pile on the traffic ways is wear and tear and so unclaimable. A 10 year old carpet with a dirty mark on it not listed on the inventory entitles the LL to claim for the carpet to be cleaned.

tbs624

weeg wrote: »

My partner is perfectly capable of sorting his own affairs out - however I am a member of this forum and he isn't,...

You misunderstood my comment: many people post on behalf of someone else for that same reason. It was more in response to certain parts of your posts, such as

He thinks there was in inventory - but it's so long ago he can't really remember. He thinks it was written down that he's allowed to smoke.

and from this very post:

weeg wrote: »

I checked - the deposit IS in a scheme. My mistake.

(my highlighting) and

weeg wrote: »

It's beyond my cleaning ability and both our cleaning inclinations.

My original question really was concerning - what's the difference between dirt and fair wear and tear, in terms of the deposit?

The MyDeposits website has useful pdf files (intended for LLs who want to make a claim against their Ts deposit for cleaning issues etc but usefull also to Ts) Yes, its the Eng/Wales site but the info is still generally applicable. See here

Similarly, the kitchen worktop has been damaged by the boiler dripping on to it for 4 years. The boiler is the responsibility of the landlord.

Yes the LL should have sorted out the dripping but was there anything to stop your OH from putting a bucket or bowl underneath it?

Your OH needs to focus on checking out the existence of any jointly signed inventory, as other posters have already flagged up.