Cycling Safety

brat

peter_the_piper wrote: »

My words.
""Differeence being, drivers accept that some idiots do these things but lots of cyclists are very reluctant to accept the cyclist is wrong.""

Your words.
""Every motorist breaks the speed limit, "" Really???

The impression this gives is that you think All Drivers are Bad
All cyclists are good .

Your argument is all over the place, changing from one thing to another as each point fails.

If you think I think all cyclists are good, or all drivers are bad please think again. I've never said or implied such a thing.

How can I be saying all drivers are bad and all cyclists are good when what I said is " in terms of reconciling offending behaviours to themselves, there is little difference between drivers and cyclists" and
"Most of them accept they are breaking the law, but don't for a second consider changing their habits. Why is that different from the red light jumping cyclist?"

All I'm saying is that drivers are coy about their own criminality yet fulminate hypocritically when a cyclist does something no more wrong.

FYI
Show me an experienced motorist who states he hasn't even inadvertently broken the speed limit, and I'll show you a liar.

I don't jump red lights, although I believe (as does TfL research) that it could have a safety dividend for cyclists.

peter_the_piper

brat wrote: »

I don't jump red lights, although I believe (as does TfL research) that it could have a safety dividend for cyclists.

Amazing you really believe that it is ok and safe for cyclists to jump red lights?:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

brat

peter_the_piper wrote: »

Amazing you really believe that it is ok and safe for cyclists to jump red lights?:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Not just me, the earlier linked report suggests precisely that. And it's not at all difficult to understand why. It's likely to be safer than setting off along with a bundle of motorists who become pressurised to get in front of you. It's also likely to be safer than inadvertently or innocently finding yourself in the blindspot of an LGV.

If certain red lights were allowed to be treated by cyclists as give way lines, I've no doubt it would improve safety.

I'm surprised even you cannot prise your blinkers wide enough apart to see this.

peter_the_piper

I somehow get the impression that we won't ever agree. Oh well, it was a good argument. Have a safe Christmas, and don't go straight past Santa.:santa2:

j0nathon2

AndyBSG wrote: »

The simple fact is that from all the evidence I see there are a lot more car drivers breaking laws than there are cyclists but cars going over the speed limit, using mobile phones or going through lights do not generate the same amount of hatred and animosity that cyclists going through red lights do.

I do agree I see more motorists. The Taxis passing into the Advanced Stop Zone seems to be very common. Perhaps they think they're bikes?

Even today, I did a 20 mile ride and did a 10 mile car journey too. I saw two cars go through red lights, one following the other. One of those cars then subsequently blocked a box junction. I myself was passed incredibly close when on my bike by a Nissan Micra, which is a tiny car! I also today had a car door open in front of me:eek:, luckily I was a little bit back so managed to check and move out.

brat

peter_the_piper wrote: »

I somehow get the impression that we won't ever agree. Oh well, it was a good argument. Have a safe Christmas, and don't go straight past Santa.:santa2:

We don't have to agree, but our view should move on persuasive argument, rather than be constrained to a particular dogma.

But I agree, this is entertainment after all. Slainte! Enjoy the festivities!

Cloudydaze

I'm a regular pedestrian, cyclist & car driver. As a pedestrian and motorist, i feel like an individual responsible for my own actions. However, for some unknown reason as a cyclist I'm made to feel responsible for the actions of every other cyclist in the country!

For the record:
I use lights at night
I wear a helmet
I dont cycle on the pavement
I dont 'jump' red rights
I also own a car so I do pay "road tax" (as the anti-cycling brigade like to call it.)

I am by no means a perfect cyclist but my life & safety are incredibly important to me so i dont take risks. I have had several near misses and was knocked off once by a car who turned across my path. However, i dont hold all motorists responsible because of one or two idiots on the road. Cycling has also made me a better driver & pedestrian. Im defintely more alert and better at anticipating & identifying the potential hazards around me.

I find it sad that on a money saving site of all sites that there seem to be certain individuals who hold such strong anti-cyclist views. I've commuted to work by bike for several years and have saved over 7k. How is that for money saving?! That doesnt include weekend cycling trips to the shops or meeting friends - saving on petrol, parking, wear & tear on car, tube and bus fares.

Its a shame that any cycling related thread on here brings out the individuals who just rehash the same old cliches about cyclists going through red lights or cycling on the pavement with nothing constructive to say on improving cycle safety.

hugheskevi

I think my cycling experiences are fairly representative of what the aggregate statistics show. Thinking back to my top 10 incidents I've either been involved in or personally observed over the last 4 years from commuting in London...(in order of seriousness)

1. Car failed to see me, turned left into road and collided with my back wheel which resulted in broken arm, caused by my momentum in the resulting fall.
2. Driver turned right across my lane (no other traffic involved). He stopped at last possible moment, collision very narrowly avoided.
3. Pedestrian stepped into road - normally I'd be ready for this, but the pedestrian had stopped and was carefully looking to cross road and waiting for oncoming traffic, but then just stepped out unpredictably into an A road. Just about avoided him. He had already walked a few feet into road next to a parked car before stopping and looking for traffic, so I was already close to centre of road when passing him whereas normally I'd have moved out a little if he was on the pavement edge so even if he did step out it wouldn't be a problem.
4. Cyclist travelling in wrong direction along bus lane across busy London bridge. Due to volume of cyclists he couldn't be seen until last moment. Very narrowly avoided him.
5. Car driver (deliberately) forced me off road and later drove aggressively toward me, due to objecting to me taking primary position through two pinch points. It is the only thing I've reported to police (other than the accident at the top) but they weren't interested in his reckless driving despite witnesses and vehicle registration, nor his threatening behaviour (got out of car, threatened violence and to kill me) - their only concern was whether when he spat at me the spit hit me or not (classy guy!).
6. Observed a cyclist almost taken out by door opened by parked car, still not quite sure how the cyclist avoided it. This was at a location where cars are allowed to park on red route in certain hours, which forces cyclists to move out to go round them. There is enough space to pass in the same lane, but that doesn't leave enough room to stay out of door zone. It could therefore be argued that cyclists should merge into outer lane of traffic to pass, but the cyclist was not cycling dangerously and I've never seen a cyclist take a different route to the one the cyclist chose.
7. Nearly hit by van door opening as I filtered along traffic waiting at red light
8. Hit by cyclist as I incorrectly stopped at a green light - it is a bit confusing and I've seen cars make the same mistake. My fault though. Damage to one of my pedals was only consequence, despite being hit at speed.
9. Cyclist came a little too close to being hit by car as she went across red light for comfort. It wasn't a normal red-light jump though, as she had stopped and I think she genuinely thought lights had changed, as she randomly set off about 5 seconds before lights changed. She stopped and moved back when she realised (ie was going extremely slowly) but if approaching car had not stopped a collision was likely.
10. Hit car's mirror at junction (we both stopped, but no damage). Still not quite sure who was at fault but infrastructure mostly to blame, with a cycle lane that went straight on next to a lane of traffic that goes left. It has been changed now, but such examples of terrible design are commonplace across the country. At the time I was inexperienced cycling in London, it wouldn't catch me out now.

From that list, of the 10 incidents 4 are due to driver/passenger failure to observe and 1 due to pedestrian failure to observe. 3 were purely cyclist's fault, one of which was due to reckless cycling. 1 was due to poor infrastructure. 1 was down to road rage and reckless driving.

I think it is also interesting that the 3 most serious incidents were all other road users failing to observe, which fits with national statistics. Two of those were in clear daylight, the pedestrian incident was after dark, I was using lights and wearing hi-viz and there was excellent street lighting. The man was also crossing the road less than 100 metres from a crossing with lights.

Better cyclist training may have prevented number 10 in the list. Cyclist registration may have prevented number 4. I don't think any of the various measures proposed regarding cyclists would have made any difference to the other 8.

In that time, I have seen literally thousands of cyclists jump red lights. Whilst many have inconvenienced pedestrians, and small number inconvenienced drivers, none of them were close to an accident aside from the one described above, which I don't think was deliberate. That isn't to say I approve, nor that I think it is okay, just that it isn't dangerous in comparison to other actions on the road. I also see about 2 drivers going through red lights each day (and a lot more amber-gamblers).

Equally, breaches of Advance Stop Zones are so routine that the majority are blocked on my journeys. Close passes (within 2 foot, sometimes less than a foot) are routine. Also, drivers overtaking and turning left across you and forcing you to stop/slow down are routine (hmmm, forgot one of those, should have been on the list above - women who overtook in free moving traffic (so I'd be at about 20 mph or thereabouts) and immediately turned left into a block of flats, forcing an emergency stop and very close miss).

j0nathon2

hugheskevi wrote: »

Also, drivers overtaking and turning left across you and forcing you to stop/slow down are routine (hmmm, forgot one of those, should have been on the list above - women who overtook in free moving traffic (so I'd be at about 20 mph or thereabouts) and immediately turned left into a block of flats, forcing an emergency stop and very close miss).

Last week a car took over me. They were well aware I was there as they had held back and give me a good amount of room on the overtake. I am going about 18mph as this is a nice gradual decline and I can build some speed up. But then, seconds later, she slowed and flashed a car to turn right, right across my path! Luckily I realised what she was about to do as she had no other reason to brake and so I braked too, and so did the elderly couple she flashed, they looked as bemused by it all as I did; I waved them through as I had stopped - safer I thought than one of the cars deciding to make the first move.

As a driver, I like to know where the cyclists are, and I make good use of my inside mirror, rear view mirror and shoulder checks to make sure before I ever flash anybody there isn't something coming up my inside. I've driven for six years and cyclist for six weeks and I have always done this.

alexanderalexander

The reason why this debate always crops up in these terms and raises such strong feelings can perhaps be explained by a bit of social identity theory!

People who drive a car but do not regularly ride a bike -- which would be a majority of the UK population -- subconsciously see themselves as the "in-group". This means that when they see or hear about an individual motorist doing something bad (e.g. causing death by dangerous driving, drink driving, etc.) they castigate one bad individual for transgressing against the happy norm. Cyclists, however, are the "out-group", so anything bad done by an individual cyclist is seen as yet more evidence of how errant and awful the group as a whole is.

This sort of subconscious ingroup-outgroup thinking can be seen in negative attitudes to all sorts of minority groups, not just cyclists.