Are we on the right lines and what about the dates ?

One_Step_at_a_Time_2

Hi folks

We’re here asking for a bit of help in confirming we’re doing the right things and advice about date issues.

We got one of these bleepin’ Parking Charges on the 6th December in a no pay but time limited shopping centre car park. We parked over the markings but the ground next to the space wasn’t another parking space (not big enough for another car but no hatched lines). Also the car in the next space was parked right up to the edge of the markings so if our car had been parked between the lines that car driver would have had problems getting into their car. Anyway, I guess those things are a bit beside the point because it seems common sense isn’t a ‘defence’ !

We think we should win an appeal with POPLA on what seems to be the classic Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss issue especially as it’s a no pay car park and it wasn’t full (although we can’t prove that).

From what I’ve read so far we should sit tight until we get the Notice to Keeper and then appeal to UKPC. The Notice to Keeper should arrive between 28 and 56 days according to what we’ve read on here which by our reckoning is Fri 3rd Jan to Fri 31st Jan if you take the dates from the 6th but that doesn’t allow for a couple of days in the post. It’s OK if we get the Notice to Keeper sooner rather than later but our problem is that we will be away from home from Mon 3rd Feb to Wed 5th March. See the problem ? What happens if we tootle off on holiday not having received the Notice but it’s there in the heap of post, the next door neighbour shovels up for us, on our return ?

So our questions are;
1. Are we right to sit tight and wait for the Notice to Keeper ?
2. What about the possibility of it not arriving before we leave on holiday ?
3. If we get the Notice to Keeper before we go away how long do we have to get our appeal in to UKPC ? With packing and all the other ‘stuff’ going on for the holiday can we have an appeal drafted and ready to go with help from you folk ?

Sorry to be a pain – we have tried to read all the advice but it is a bit daunting !

Oh, and do we need to go and take a photo of the exact wording of the signs in the car park for any Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss appeal ?

Umkomaas

No reason whatsoever why you can't start drafting an advance appeal. Normally PPCs give 28 days for appeal.

Do you have anyone taking in/opening your post for you? If you do you could perhaps prime them to look out for it and for them to whack off your (undated) soft appeal - it doesn't have to be anything detailed or lengthy, you're just fishing for a POPLA code.

In terms of GPEOL, the signage/NtK needs to be in the context of 'breach of conditions' or 'failure to comply' to be absolutely in the context of GPEOL, although I'd still use it if the signage/NtK talks in terms of a 'contractual charge'. None of the above is 'terminal'; each can be defeated at POPLA.

For the moment, read the NEWBIES sticky on how to draft a soft appeal.

HTH

One_Step_at_a_Time_2

Thanks Umkomaas

I keep on getting lost in all the links on the stickies but I think I've now found the advice on drafting the first appeal. Best get started on a draft !

We'll just keep our fingers crossed for the Notice to Keeper arriving before we go away. Our neighbour only moves the post away from the door so it isn't obvious the house is unoccupied. Wouldn't want to burden them with opening and responding to letters. Besides if we can prove we weren't at the address to receive the letter I would hope we would have grounds to put in a late appeal although as I said previously it doesn't seem that common sense applies with these Private Parking jobbies.

Thanks for the help and I'll come back and report progress if I can find the thread - didn't realise there was so much going on here :eek:

martmonk

if your dates are right (and I've no reasone to doubt them and haven't counted myself), then if the NtK arrives after you leave in Feb then it's out of time anyway and it won't matter as you can either ignore, or respond to it when you see fit saying it's out of time and you won't be naming the driver as you don't need to do so.

One_Step_at_a_Time_2

OK, we've now received the Notice to Keeper.

First question - is it better to send a 'to be signed for' letter or to use the e-mail facility on UKPC's website ? I'm inclined towards the signed for letter despite the cost because any website response could disappear in the ether and we wouldn't have a copy.....

Second question - is the following wording OK ?

Dear Sir

I am writing in response to your ‘Notice to Keeper’ dated XX/XX/2014 for the Parking Charge Reference XXXXXXX for vehicle registration XXXXXXX.

As registered keeper of the above vehicle I wish to contest this charge on the grounds that charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable, a genuine pre-estimate of loss and compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer.

As there are no fees charged at the car park in question the landholder would not suffer a loss in this case.

As can be seen from your own photographic evidence, the vehicle was not preventing another car from parking as the space to the right of the vehicle is not large enough for another car; therefore, there would not be any loss to the landholder or loss of potential sales for the landholder’s tenants.

Therefore, I believe the charge you seek to make is intended to be a penalty, not compensation for loss to the landholder.

I look forward to receiving confirmation that you have cancelled this charge.


We live in the hope (as opposed to expectation) that UKPC might just realise we've got a grip of what's what and will cancel before we go on our hols (see previous posts) :rotfl: You never know your luck (why isn't there a flying pig emoticon ?)

Grateful for your thoughts.

Redx

they usually refuse signed for anything, so free proof of posting at the PO is recommended , or an email as long as you dont imply who was driving or give driver details (or online appeal if they do it, with the same caveats)

this is more like how your appeal should be, although add anything you like as long as it doesnt imply who was driving

Dear UKPC,

As the registered keeper of (reg) I'm in receipt of your parking invoice xxxxxx dated xxxxxx. I wish to invoke your appeals process as all liability to your company is denied on the following:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the capacity to offer contracts or to bring a claim for trespass

These points and others will be raised with Popla should you not accept this appeal, and you will be expected to provide a full breakdown of your alleged loss, and your full unredacted contract with the landowner.

If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Please issue your cancellation within 35 days of this letter, or forward a popla verification code.

Faithfully

One_Step_at_a_Time_2

Thanks again Redx

I've now used your wording (if it's a formula that works, why knock it !) and saved it to lodge the appeal closer to when we go on holiday. Apart from making the bleepers wait it means if they're daft enough to reject our appeal we'll have more time to word a POPLA appeal once we get back from holiday.

Do you know what makes me mad :mad: , and sad , is wondering how many poor people just pay up in ignorance ? Especially the elderly who probably can least afford £60.

I'll update at the next stage.

Coupon-mad

That's why us regulars are here every day, makes us mad and sad about the scam too!

One_Step_at_a_Time_2

UKPC kindly us sent a reminder and we've now lodged our appeal online. Had to cut Redx's suggestion down a wee bit to fit the 1,000 characters but it still had all the essentials. Now we're off on holiday and will find out what next when we return - what odds they refuse our appeal ? :rotfl:

Redx

chances are they will refuse it and should give you a popla code, you then have 28 days from the date embedded in that code to get your popla appeal to popla , so time is of the essence when you receive that verification code

One_Step_at_a_Time_2

OK. We’re back from holiday and surprise, surprise, UKPC have turned down our appeal.

I’ve read and re-read so many appeal letters and decisions on here and pepipoo now that my head hurts (I’m a bear of very little brain….) so I really want to keep our POPLA appeal simple. This is my draft which reflects the points I raised in my appeal to UKPC and adds something about the sudden offer of a reduction to £60 if we pay up now instead of appealing to POPLA.

Any thoughts appreciated. As the rejection of our appeal arrived while we were on holiday we now only have a few days to get our POPLA appeal in.

Thanks in advance.


POPLA Reference: xxxxxxxxxx
Vehicle Reg: xxxxxxxx
PPC: UK Parking Control Ltd. (UKPC)
PCN Ref: xxxxxxxxxxxx
Alleged Contravention Date & Time: xx.xx, xx.xx.xxxx


On xx.xx.xxxx I was sent a Notice to Keeper for a Parking Charge, reference xxxxxxxxx, requiring payment of £100 for an alleged breach of the terms and conditions for parking on UKPC’s client’s property. I subsequently appealed this Charge to UKPC on xx.xx.xxxx. That appeal was rejected by them in a letter dated xx.xx.xxxx. However, in that rejection letter UKPC offered me the opportunity to pay the charge at ‘a reduced rate’ of £60. I have attached a copy of the Notice to Keeper dated xx.xx.xxxx and the letter dated xx.xx.xxxx

At no time have the communications from UKPC indicated whether their Parking Charge is for a genuine pre-estimate of loss to their landowner client or for liquidated damages as agreed in their contract with their landowner client. In fact their letter of the xx.xx.xxxx only indicates the charge is ‘likely’ to amount to liquidated damages.

I would, therefore, appeal to POPLA in the following grounds;

As the car park is free, the car was not occupying two parking spaces and the car park was not full, there was no loss to the landowner nor to the retailers at the retail park.

I believe £100 for Liquidated Damages to be excessive and punitive and would ask that UKPC be obliged to provide a breakdown of these ‘costs’ in relation to this specific alleged breach of the terms and conditions of parking.

I challenge UKPC’s assertion that their signage is compliant with BPA Code of Practice as, among other breaches, there are no entrance signs visible and the signs detailing the Terms and Conditions are too high from the ground to be easily read.

As UKPC have not supplied me with a copy of their contract and are not clear in their letter of xx.xx.xxxx I do not know whether the charge is for a pre-estimate of loss to UKPC’s client or a contractually agreed sum; in either case £100 is excessive and I consider it to be punitive.

UKPC have not explained why, after rejecting my appeal to them, they have now offered a 40% reduction in the charge if I do not pursue an appeal to POPLA. I am concerned that this amounts to coercion.