letting agent has moved in new tenants without notifying us (so no contract etc..)

23rdspiral

Hi thanks for reading. Any perspective / advice will be greatly recieved.

Background:
There is a family property that wouldnt sell so we rent it out. We dont make much on it and what we have made has paid for new boiler, damp proofing, guttering, new toilet (in fact it'll be several years before we actually see any Profit!)

Recent hisrory:
Our tennants moved in in June, but asked to end their contract early after a change of circumstance. We didn't have to oblige but we are nice so did. He moves out on Jan 7th. This gives us a week with the property empty to sort out a new/reoccuring damp problem before the new tennant moves in. Peachy.

For 5 weeks now i've been asking/chasing/pestering the letting agent for Information on the damp problem (what, when, where, how bad, Photo?!)... eg the info i'll need to tell the contractors who (suposidly) fixed it before.

The Shock:
Yesterday I phoned up to ask again for the info, explaining time was running out to get things in place before the new tenants move in... only to be told They Had Moved In last week!!!

We have not been told anything about this:
- didn't know there was a change to last tennant's contract dates
- didn't know there was a change to new tennant's moving in dates
- we have not seen the 'exit' inventory for the last tenant
- we have not been asked to sign so his deposit can return to him! (that's Not Fair to him!)
- we were not able to inspect as usual so cannot now say if any damage was done by him or by the new tenant on entering!
- we have not signed a contract with the new tennant!

* I am wondering where we stand legally on this?
* I realise the letting agent has acted badly, but would this count as 'gross misconduct'? (as a family member believes)
* Where do I stand legally with this?
* Are the new tenants now squatters?!

I really hope i'm over-worrying about this, and a month later all monies will be where they should be and everyone will be happy... but... *would you ditch your letting agent if they did this to you?

Guest101

Yes I would, they have acted beyond their remit - assuming you have not contracted them to do this.

No the tenants are not squatters.

Need more info on your contract with the LA, fully managed?

Need more info on old tenant, is he paid up until January?

Is the new tenants deposit protected?

You need to see the tenancy agreement.

These are your employees don't be afraid to give them both barrels

23rdspiral

thank you Guest101

No the tenants are not squatters.
phew!

Need more info on your contract with the LA, fully managed?
it is a fully managed service (as aposed to 'finders only') but we retain rights to use our own contractors etc and ask to be notified/consulted on changes to the property/terms etc.. (this is in writing in our contract). We have not given them the power to act without our knowledge or concent.

Need more info on old tenant, is he paid up until January?
He has been paying monthly as agreed.. he is up to date on his last month's rent but i am unsure where he/we stand on the part rent owed for the bit of the last month.

Is the new tenants deposit protected?
I do not know. I would like to think so, as we have always used the Deposit Protection Scheme in the past.

You need to see the tenancy agreement.
Yes I think i do. I brought this matter to the manager's attention yesterday and still havn't heard anything sensible from the firm.

These are your employees don't be afraid to give them both barrels.
Thank You! It is good of you to remind me of this fact. I've been a tenant before and know how it feels, so as a LL i'm keen to be acomodating and friendly. This situation has shocked and bewildered me.

RAS

I would demand sight of all the searches and references obtained for the new tenant and double check the references.

We have had a couple of instances when EAs have either moved problematic tenants or let places to "friends" with limited checks.

AlexMac

If you are really that upset with your contractor (your 'employee', the LA, as someone says above) you need to sack them, so what did it say in the contract or terms of business which they gave you when your relationship started? Was it open ended, implying they would have perpetual rights to let and manage your property? I doubt it, and even if it did, and they sued you for breach of contract no court would enforce such a contact.

Not that I can talk! I've always had a loose 'finder only' arrangement with LAs (thereafter I manage myself) and sometimes haven't even signed a contact with the agent before they acted for me; but I always had a clear and unambiguous understanding of what they were to do, at what cost, and with what prior communication with me- and that was only ever on a one-letting-only basis.

So I'd call/visit, then write, setting out your dissatisfaction in the way you do above, and say that as they have failed so badly, you are terminating the arrangement. If that's what you want to do?

You'll obviously have to sort out rent payments and Deposit protection and instruct the tenant accordingly- but that's not rocket science, even if you do it yourself. In fact, if you have a new boiler etc, and unless the place needs lots of regular maintenence, I assume that all the LA has been doing for their 10-15% fee is collecting rent- probably by SO, annual gas certs and deposit protection (one of the LAs round here only charges £35pa to administer that).

But miscommunication over the damp and the timing aside, did the LA really act in bad faith? You say you knew a replacement tenant was going to move in (and presumably had instructed the LA to set this up?) so are they really out of order in acting in your interests (as they might argue) to minimise the void period? You don't know they've screwed up on reference checking or deposit protection? They might argue that this is their area of expertise, and they do this so efficiently that they don't usually bother the landlord with the detail (unlikely, I know) and that they'd never leave you open to legal sanction (as would be the case if they failed on Gas inspections or Deposit protection - because the buck stops with you).

So if you were feeling generous, might it be worth looking them in the eye and getting clear information? (emails and letters are for covering your raas; eye contact is for action)

Your call

23rdspiral

RAS wrote: »

I would demand sight of all the searches and references obtained for the new tenant and double check the references.

We have had a couple of instances when EAs have either moved problematic tenants or let places to "friends" with limited checks.

Thanks RAS, that's not something I'd thought of. I will be througher and ask for everything.

AlexMac wrote: »

If you are really that upset with your contractor (your 'employee', the LA, as someone says above) you need to sack them, so what did it say in the contract or terms of business which they gave you when your relationship started? Was it open ended, implying they would have perpetual rights to let and manage your property? I doubt it, and even if it did, and they sued you for breach of contract no court would enforce such a contact.

I can't recall the exact terms, but it was not open ended. I will check the contract.

Not that I can talk! I've always had a loose 'finder only' arrangement with LAs (thereafter I manage myself) and sometimes haven't even signed a contact with the agent before they acted for me; but I always had a clear and unambiguous understanding of what they were to do, at what cost, and with what prior communication with me- and that was only ever on a one-letting-only basis.

They have begun marketing previously without a signed contract before, which is ok, but to change end dates and move someone in without concent feels above and beyond a 'mutual understanding'.

So I'd call/visit, then write, setting out your dissatisfaction in the way you do above, and say that as they have failed so badly, you are terminating the arrangement. If that's what you want to do?

Thanks. Once I have made a decision I will write as per above, and also call in. I might just explain the basics of my issue without making any rash decisions and see what they say.

You'll obviously have to sort out rent payments and Deposit protection and instruct the tenant accordingly- but that's not rocket science, even if you do it yourself. In fact, if you have a new boiler etc, and unless the place needs lots of regular maintenence, I assume that all the LA has been doing for their 10-15% fee is collecting rent- probably by SO, annual gas certs and deposit protection (one of the LAs round here only charges £35pa to administer that).

Thanks - I hadn't considered managing the property myself due to working full time in a different town. But things have changed so it might now be a reasonable course of action.

But miscommunication over the damp and the timing aside, did the LA really act in bad faith? You say you knew a replacement tenant was going to move in (and presumably had instructed the LA to set this up?) so are they really out of order in acting in your interests (as they might argue) to minimise the void period? You don't know they've screwed up on reference checking or deposit protection? They might argue that this is their area of expertise, and they do this so efficiently that they don't usually bother the landlord with the detail (unlikely, I know) and that they'd never leave you open to legal sanction (as would be the case if they failed on Gas inspections or Deposit protection - because the buck stops with you).

Yes I realise I might be seen as odd at feeling put out that they have moved a tenant in a month early!
- I still have not recieved the last tenant's check out inventory and have not had the paperwork to 'release' his deposit from the scheme... so it is actually the last tennant that is in the worst position here.

So if you were feeling generous, might it be worth looking them in the eye and getting clear information? (emails and letters are for covering your raas; eye contact is for action)

I'd just like people to do the job they are hired to do! I'll go see them asap and look them in they eye and see what they say. I am wary though that I have not been in this position before and want to check my position - hense posting here - which I am very glad I did.

Your call

Thanks for your though out advice and perspective on the issues.

and on thinking about it, it seems odd to be paying them to manage the property / make my life easier when they are just making it more stressful!

AdrianC

I'd be asking very strong questions of the LA, and wanting good answers - and I'd be doing it in person, in their offices. It's too easy to be fobbed off on the phone or by post/email.

I wouldn't be doing anything else remotely, just getting straight in there tomorrow, making myself very comfortable, and making it very clear that I wasn't planning on leaving until we'd reached some kind of agreement as to how this was going to be dealt with, and what was going to happen in the future.

This tenant is in now, for at least their initial tenancy period. You can't do much about that, only react to how they behave as tenants. (Fingers crossed!)

As a minimum, the LA need to be covering any losses that you'd otherwise be hit with over the inventory/check-in/out confusion, and I'd be expecting a generous rebate in their fees as an apology.

rpc

AdrianC wrote: »

I'd be asking very strong questions of the LA, and wanting good answers - and I'd be doing it in person, in their offices. It's too easy to be fobbed off on the phone or by post/email.

On the other hand, a personal visit does not generate a paper trail to be used in court.

Handle this strictly in writing.

If you sack the agent, they may try to sue for fees and you will need a paper trail as part of your defence.

You may incur losses and you would then need a paper trail to evidence your claim against the agent. What if this tenant isn't checked and never pays rent? What if the deposit hasn't been protected? By cutting you out of the loop, the LA could well be liable for any losses that you incur as a result of this unauthorised tenancy.

AdrianC

rpc wrote: »

On the other hand, a personal visit does not generate a paper trail to be used in court.

It does if you take notes of what's agreed, then write to them documenting the agreement immediately afterwards.

G_M

See:

Letting Agents (Tips for selecting, and tips for sacking them)


This may also be of interest:

New Landlords (information for new or prospective landlords)

rpc

AdrianC wrote: »

It does if you take notes of what's agreed, then write to them documenting the agreement immediately afterwards.

Which invites the reply "we do not agree with the record of the meeting that you have presented" if it doesn't go their way. Or even "we felt obliged to agree under duress as you were becoming threatening etc etc"

Mediation in person, with no independent third party present, is not a good idea. It is a technique often used to browbeat one party and you will often find tenants are recommended not to attend the LA in person to mediate. Same argument holds when it is a landlord.