Please help me think this through

lostinrates

Thanks a lot.

I didn't know that pet crematoria would collect from here. That's worth considering. I'll talk to vet tomorrow about that.


Fwiw, its a decision I have made often before, and have had to make for clients animals, but each time with your 'own' (she is my parent's but i love her as mine) its hard and never gets easier.

I went into tailspin a little because I got the news while I was out and I didn't really ask the questions I should have asked and feel wrong footed by that too.


The insurance is confusing me, but DH agrees with everyone here, just pretend it doesn't exist, We self insure most of our own animals, and its just that dealing with the insurers was a bit frustrating. If my parent can recover money and reimburse us fine, if not we stand the costs for what ever decision we make. My parent would like to keep her going as long as possible and that becomes harder, because I am not sure that's in her best interests (particularly as it will require lots of vet trips) but then the owner ship issue emerges. I will talk to the vet about that too.

Tbc, she doesn't become extremely distraught at the vets, but she does really really hate it. My other dogs can take it or leave it, but big dog definitely opts to leave it, so going downs route where regular trips for check ups and drugs became a feature of her week would be a long hard think for me as to how much I liked it. She does like the trip in the car and I am fairly sure a vet would come to the car to see her though, so if its a route we go down I think I could make it work.

Her sister's cancers didn't show on scans nor blood tests, so I think I am a bit concerned that she might have further cancer we do not know about that cause problems and are hard to detect and pull her down further and further, I want to be mindful to avoid that.

Spirit_2

LiR,
If there comes a point where treatment is invasive and causing discomfort then that may be a turnng point.

Our last dog had squamous call carcinoma and over a number of years had several toes removed from his front paws. We were OK with this as recovery was rapid and he had a full life.

Aged eight he collapsed and on taking him in our vet diagnosed a problem with his spleen and we agreed to surgery. We were quite happy to leave him at the vets to collect post op.

On opening him up he had an inoperable tumour and the vet rang my husband and he took the decision to let Fen go.

Our vet was a close friend, he knew how we felt about our boy, his costs were fair and our dog was priceless. He could have had a few more weeks with us, we could afford the bill (insured)but would have been recovering from his abortive surgery and then been 'infirm'.

Hard for us, best for him. I truly believe that sometimes you have to love them enough to let them go.

Spirit x

calicocat

I'm no expert on this but a close friend had a problem cancerous lump in her dog recently...but her dog was a lot younger.

She was told his was aggressive...it did turn out that they could remove it before spreading.

Your dog is old, first thing I would want to know is if it has spread. I wouldn't put an old dog through chemo, that can make them very ill apparently, if it has spread, and I wouldn't want an old dog of mine to have that on top of anything else.

For me..if it has gone to other areas, I would want happy pain free life from now on, not weeks and weeks in a hospital with radiation and chemo on his own in a kennel for the sake of maybe a few months....and maybe months of feeling sick due to the treatments.


It such a horrible balance of doing what's right on lots of different levels isn't it.

I would discuss further with vet in more depth all possibilities and probabilities.

Good luck with your decision as it's not easy. Do what your dog would think best.

Dunroamin

lostinrates wrote: »

My vets are great, I like the head vet a lot, we are on the same wave length, but he is a specialist ina. Different area, and this is not it.

The other vets are quite surgery driven I think, BUT they are all excellent and IMO the standard of care there is fabulous. I drive some distance to go there because I trust them a LOT. Sadly however this means PTS at home is not likely to be possible, though I could ask head vet if as a favour he or his partner might consider going the extra few miles......I think the time of year might make that a bit harder if it becomes pressing.


The other concern I have is that PTS at home, while nicer for big dog and easier for the others to understand poses certain practical difficulties.

Lifting big dog for disposal is not going to be an easy task at all. I know what car my head vets have and she won't fit in that so I'd have to drive her to the surgery, then take her in and there would need to be my DH and another strong person to carry her. ( he can manage her alone alive, but from experience a dead big dog and a live one are different things altogether.


I'm sorry its all so graphic and horrid , but its the facts really.

When my 60kg Pyrenean Mountain Dog was put to sleep, two young female vets came out to the house and then took the body away with no help from me.

He'd had an osteo sarcoma and we had his leg amputated which gave him a good pain free 4 months which we were very happy about - I wouldn't have put him through chemo, that would've been too much.

lostinrates

Dunroamin wrote: »

When my 60kg Pyrenean Mountain Dog was put to sleep two young female vets came out to the house and then took the body away with no help from me.

He'd had an osteo sarcoma and we had his leg amputated which gave him a good pain free 4 months which we were very happy about - I wouldn't have put him through chemo, that would've been too much.

She is larger than a Pyrenean. Not too much heavier, but bigger, a less on pact shape

I'm not just being feeble about this, we have had to shift two dead horses this year too, :(so I have some context. Practically, getting her out of doors etc is going to be an issue. From 'her bedroom' where she'd be most relaxed to the front door is four doors, including two tight turns, then a further, maybe....forty, fifty yards to the car. We could probably hover the car closer tbf though, lift her out on road side. Yes, we could. I just think the rest of the route through the house is Not feasible, particularly the first turn. ( period quirky house,Big Dig with long limbs. ) . Also means we have to time it not for her best interests but for when DH and other man power is here ( DH works away week days. ( I think I could manage if push came to shove but, if I'm not well on the day....)




Really I think the first step is talking about how possible it is to gauge the extent of any spread/ secondary in the op or before. Perhaps reconsidering Idea of scanning if vets think that might show anything useful. If we know its spread then our options are further limited I think.

Eit...actually, not sure she is THAT much bigger than a Pyrenean actually. She's a lot bigger than a maremma, but they are a bit smaller aren't they?

Gold_Dust_2

lostinrates wrote: »

Thanks a lot.

I went into tailspin a little because I got the news while I was out and I didn't really ask the questions I should have asked and feel wrong footed by that too.

This is definitely one of those important things that will bug you, so be sure to ask your questions and clarify any doubts that you may have before you go ahead and do anything, otherwise it'll needlessly bug the hell out of you. I found it helpful to make a list on my phone as things occurred to me at different times of the day or someone would ask a question and I would forget it, and this way I had it all to hand. Be sure to ask your parents and OH for their questions too, as they'll give you questions you won't have thought of. It'll also stop them bugging you later once you've already asked your questions, and will help them to feel better about any decisions made.

lostinrates wrote: »

The insurance is confusing me, but DH agrees with everyone here, just pretend it doesn't exist, We self insure most of our own animals, and its just that dealing with the insurers was a bit frustrating. If my parent can recover money and reimburse us fine, if not we stand the costs for what ever decision we make. My parent would like to keep her going as long as possible and that becomes harder, because I am not sure that's in her best interests (particularly as it will require lots of vet trips) but then the owner ship issue emerges. I will talk to the vet about that too.

It's good that you're willing to absorb the costs, but don't let the process put you off that easily. This is what insurance is for, and the insurers really benefit from the fact that many would-be claimants are not willing to navigate the system - especially during such an emotional and tough time, which is tough and twisty for a reason. If they don't pay up, it'll mean that your parents were paying the insurance company all of that money for years for no reason. It'll also mean that you held off claiming on the meds for no reason. Don't give up easily, but don't be disheartened if they screw you over - they are an insurance company at the end of the day .

Definitely sit and have a heart to heart with parent, and take care to listen to whatever they have to say and answer their every question clearly. If they have questions, offer to put them to the vet on their behalf, or let them talk to the vet themselves. It's important that they don't feel as though they're being overruled and have no say in the matter even if they don't, as this will create resentment and a stubborn attitude. It really helps to get them on your side. (Sorry, I know that you aren't naïve and neither are your parents children, just saying what worked best for me).

lostinrates wrote: »

Her sister's cancers didn't show on scans nor blood tests, so I think I am a bit concerned that she might have further cancer we do not know about that cause problems and are hard to detect and pull her down further and further, I want to be mindful to avoid that.

It's a good question to ask the vet, and he should definitely keep an eye out when doing the biopsy and blood tests etc., but that kind of thinking is going to send you over the edge. Do what you can, and leave the rest to fate because you can't control everything, it'll drive you crazy if you let it!

Above all of this, make sure that you cherish every moment with BD, as you will both appreciate it more whilst she's still completely 'there'. It's a sad fact, but if things start to go downhill, 'quality time' starts to lose it's 'quality' and just becomes 'time'.

lostinrates

Thanks again everyone.

I had parent in distress on the phone again this morning saying I wanted to put big dog down, . Its all rather stressful.


Edit: doesn't really make a difference to our decision but the good news is that the insurers have agreed to cover treatment too. With a big dog costs of even palliative care build up very, very quickly so at least that's some help.

geoffky

I had a brilliant relationship with my vet and i told him years ago that when the time was right to tell me it was time for the dog to go then i would not let it suffer because i did not want to lose it.
He did a brilliant job and did not let my dog hang on with a poor quality of life..

lostinrates

geoffky wrote: »

I had a brilliant relationship with my vet and i told him years ago that when the time was right to tell me it was time for the dog to go then i would not let it suffer because i did not want to lose it.
He did a brilliant job and did not let my dog hang on with a poor quality of life..

I have a relationship like this with my horse vets. If only they did small animals! They are just wonderful people. They like their clients too. I


I haven't managed to speak to her vet but I have booked the last available surgery spot with her provisionally. (Its a large practise and their are spots with a couple of other vets but the vet did mention she recommended surgery was with one of the most experienced surgeons, her or the more senior general surgery partner still, and she has a space before Christmas, so i'm happy for that.. Its on Christmas Eve, so a bit of stress.

I did tell the reception I still had questions, and they said she would call. Sd's law people have been calling all day and I have been trying to get them off the phone and then it rings again.....and she had a heavy surgery schedule, I know.


I also got collared by the dispensing vet nurse to say she thought big dog's pain killers would be better given in a different way, so that lead to a good productive and informational conversation I am glad I had too. I have a months supply of them, I hope I need them, they are on the big size for dog dog, the smallest weight of dog to take one of these tablets is 40k, dog dog is about 37/38 k ATM.......






Even the car we drive is dictated by big dog, We've been dreading needing to replace because we knew big dog wasn't here for ever but still need to cater for her. Todos afternoon on our 'putting chickens away and checking horses walk' she was as good as cold, normally its her time to be the naughtier one, but the other two were frightful and big dog pottered about by be grinning and being golden in her behaviour.

Edit: decided having spoken to vet, and confirmed surgery for Christmas Eve. No unexpected misadventure we'll be allowed to bring her home and keep her quiet at the end of the day. The vet said because of the nature of it and that she is bouncy and happy now with us its highly unlikely they will make the decision to pts on the table, and we might have sometime happy with otherwise palliative care still.

orlao

Oh LiR it's such a horrible time for you - always second guessing yourself and wondering what is the right thing to do.

I can only tell you my experiences with a large dog and cancer (Rottie so oestosarcoma was always a fear!)

My boy had various scares over the years, as I'm sure you know every limp causes the worry that it maybe the big C as it's shockingly prevalent in large breeds. In those years I paid an absolute fortune for various exploratory and diagnostic procedures including an MRI scan less than 8 weeks before he was PTS with a fractured leg due to oestosacoma...it didn't show on that scan. What was discovered was a invasive tumour in his jaw (not OS but the name escapes me) and another tumour on his pituitary gland. Despite the AHT offering surgery I decided not to go ahead as removing the pituitary tumour was very risky and he possibly only had a 50% survival rate due to it's location. Then if he survived the first op the jaw tumour involved removing a large part of his upper jaw with a longish stay at the vet hospital. To me, that was too much for an oldish dog to tolerate even though he liked the vets and was a very stoic dog. So stoic in fact that he was only showing a very slight limp in the weeks following up to his leg fracturing.

Over a year after I lost him I still go hot and cold at the thought that his last few weeks could easily have been spent at the vets or recovering from major surgery while this horrible disease took hold instead of at home trying to be a lap dog (he lived with JRTs all his life so was a bit deluded about his size ), playing with his pals and rolling in unmentionables.

IME once cancer of any sort shows in some of the large breeds - rotts, dobes, retrievers, mastiffs etc - it spreads and fast. Personally, chemo and amputation is not an option that I would ever take. ( I know you've said you wouldn't go to those lengths ) I've seen it be successful in a few dogs but I know to many more that didn't do well on it.

My view at this time would be have the diagnostics - is a MRI an option? Despite it not picking up my dogs OS it is non invasive, just requiring a general anaesthetic,scarily expensive but will probably give the best overall view of her health.

Go with your gut instinct - I live by the mottos that 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' and 'better a week too early than a day too late' for my animals when it comes to making the hardest decision for them.

Just seen your update - at least you'll know what you're dealing with!