vague quotation - enforceable?

andybird123

Hi guys,
so I have a situation with a trader who offered to design an extension for me, when he first visited my property I told him that a builder had recommended a double pitched roof but that I thought this might be adding unnecessary cost to the project, he asked me how I felt about flat roofs and I told him that I was willing to look at some options for a flat roof but I didn't want a felt roof (you know, layers of bitumen roofing felt with chippings), he agreed with me on the day, and sent me a quote that just says it is for him to design and extension "as discussed", I agreed by email assuming that "as discussed" meant he wouldn't be designing a felt roof,


a couple of weeks later he came back to my property to take more measurements - he is now claiming that he showed me his notes and got my verbal agreement to these notes (he did not but whatever), and that in these notes he simply wrote down "flat roof" without noting my previous spec to not have felt


another couple of weeks later and a design turns up at my door with roofing felt written all over it


I complained and pointed out that I'd already told him I didn't want roofing felt, I wanted an alternative and that ideally I wanted a specialist contractor who offered their own warranty


he replied and just said that he didn't know any specialist contractors and that his design already met "the brief" and that if I wanted changes then I'd have to pay more, as I say, he's now claiming that he showed me his notes and that his notes form the contract that I agreed to


now, two things I've discovered, in UK law a contract is formed when an offer is accepted (when I replied yes to his quote) and that consensus is required - both parties must clearly understand the terms they are agreeing to - as I understood that I was agreeing to NOT have a felt roof, and he was agreeing to design whatever he felt like, we didn't have consensus, so no contract, so no money owed?


also, if a contract is formed and agreed in the home, then by doorstep selling laws he has to give me a copy in writing and tell me I have 7 days to cancel - as he didn't do either of these things a contract formed in my home is also not enforceable?

in either case I can't see that he's properly informed me of what the contract was that he thought I was agreeing to, so how can he say that I need to pay up or pay more for changes?

what does anyone think? been in a similar situation with a vague quote?


cheers,

mo786uk

1) With regards to the doorstep regs - a cancelaltion notice has to be given to you if the contract is MADE whilst he is in your home but not if he goes away and it is agreed later.

If no cancellation notice paperwork is given then it is unenforceable.

If there is no contract paperwork the cancellation paperowrk must be given on its own

There is no requirement in alw that a ocntract of this type has to be on paper - but the doorstep regulatiosn require the notice of right to cancel to be on paper.

2) if your felt roof bit was a condition of the contract then he is in breach of contract

i daresay thing will be very much a case of your word against his if he pursues it to court for your non payment.

without going through it all in detail it looks like a contract to provide the design service was formed but a condition was not met.

keithdc

Firstly, I'm not convinced a contract is yet in existence. It still sounds as though it is in the discussion/ planning stages. There has been a slight misunderstanding on spec which can be easily sorted.

Secondly, do you have planning permission? If not, do you want a contract to be in force for the whole build?

Thirdly, has any work started? If not, then he is obviously not going to build you a different roof for the same price. You could, of course, try the loss of bargain route but there are too many vague areas for you to win in court.

Forthly, if I was the builder, I would walk away now!

andybird123

hi keith, this isn't the builder, this is the "architectural services" provider, his quote is to draw the plans for planning, my impression is that his quote is "the contract" and his quote just says "as discussed"... my understanding of his quote was that he was not going to design a felt roof, he admits that I told him this at the original meeting which he then produced the quote but is now (after many emails where he never mentioned it) saying that in his view the notes he made at the second meeting are "the contract" and I didn't re-mention this at the second meeting so it's not in the contract


I've already given him a deposit of half and he's now coming after me for the 2nd half of the money, despite the fact that I clearly told him in all my emails that I didn't want a felt roof, he's not made any suggestions for another type of flat roof (like single ply membrane, or GRP or anything else that you can make flat roofs out of)


I've since engaged another provider (an actual architect) who is being much more helpful and giving me lots of options every time I ask a question - he's even produced several rough sketches for each option and then we've discussed it


it was CAB who put me on to both bits of info but I know they are not really lawyers so exactly how this legislation applies in this case is a bit of an open question, I just wondered if anyone else had a similar situation where a quote just says "as discussed" and the consumer and the trader have very different views on what the "as discussed" means
when I asked the trader for alternatives, he's just said that he doesn't know of any (he now says that isn't what he meant, but is clearly is what he said so I had to go to another architect to actually get the project moving)


cheers,


Andy

hollydays

Do what the cab says.

andybird123

hollydays wrote: »

Do what the cab says.

I have done - sent him both links to legislation and asked him to confirm on what date, how and where does he think we agreed the contract (and a copy of "the contract" whether it's his quote or his notes or both)... his only response is that he will see me in court


I know I need to give CAB another call on Monday, just wondered if anyone else had had direct experience of an "as discussed" quote and how that turned out


thanks to everyone that has responded anyway!


I'm pretty good on consumer rights when it comes to buying goods but when it comes to services things seem to be a bit more grey - I will certainly never agree to a quote that just says "as discussed" again!

unholyangel

When he admitted you told him no felt roof......did he happen to admit it in email or over the phone?

I cant say for sure, but I daresay this may backfire on him if he has nothing in writing other than "as discussed". He is the business entity so he will be expected to be the savvy one when it comes to contractual matters.

A contract was formed when you made an offer and he agreed to provide the services in return for that offer. IMO the felt roof conversation would form part of the contract - regardless of it is classed as being formed on the first visit or the 2nd.

He should have made more detailed notes - especially if you specifically requested he didn't use/do something. The fact that he hasn't just (imo anyway) implies he hasn't carried out his contractual obligations with reasonable care and skill.

andybird123

yeah, it is in an email, so I do have it in writing that he remembers having a conversation about me not wanting a certain type of flat roof, however he's saying that in his 2nd notes (which he is now alleging I read) I countermanded this by agreeing to have a "flat roof" with no other specification noted


other than the stuff that happened at my house, everything has been in writing, problem is the bit that happened at my house is the corner stone of why things went wrong (e.g. that he didn't take proper notes or give me a copy when I told him I didn't want a felt roof)

unholyangel

andybird123 wrote: »

yeah, it is in an email, so I do have it in writing that he remembers having a conversation about me not wanting a certain type of flat roof, however he's saying that in his 2nd notes (which he is now alleging I read) I countermanded this by agreeing to have a "flat roof" with no other specification noted


other than the stuff that happened at my house, everything has been in writing, problem is the bit that happened at my house is the corner stone of why things went wrong (e.g. that he didn't take proper notes or give me a copy when I told him I didn't want a felt roof)

If he's admitted you specifically stated the flat roof was not to be felt, imo you've definitely got the upper hand.

IMO it formed part of the contract and by failing to make note of it, he has (as above) failed to carry out his duties with reasonable care and skill.

Personally, I'd be tempted to tell him to take me to court. Given that you have proof you stated no felt and he only has proof that you agreed to a flat roof (and not a felt flat roof), the onus will be on him to prove you agreed to such a term. He cant claim "I advised andy on our 2nd meeting that a flat roof was not going to be possible without using felt materials and he agreed to go ahead using felt" if the current architect is doing exactly that as again, shows a lack of care/skill.

However, given i'm not you, you may want to obtain proper legal advice before telling him to take a run and jump. Do you have legal cover on your insurance at all?

mo786uk

You may also wish to look up mistake in contract

That is a halfway hosueb etween no ocntract and a breach of contract - its a bit complicated though.

andybird123

We already have an active claim / counter claim open - his claims that i read his notes at my house are in his claim on me, hence why im trying to work out if he even has a valid contract with me that he can enforce (on the day he lodged his claim he sent me an email with an invoice dated 30th December 2013 demanding immediate payment)