Financial ombudsman agree with banks decision

Unhappy_rose

Hi, I have diligently followed the advice and templates on this site trying to reclaim ppi on a credit card. These forms have all been really useful and easy to use. My story in short.... Applied for a credit card. Was told over the phone I had to take out ppi in order to get the card and I therefore reluctantly ticked the ppi box on the application. Paid ppi at about 60p per £100 balance on card for over 9 years. When I realised what this was costing me I call card company and cancelled the ppi. I have since paid of card. I wrote to card company to claim ppi. The said I had no claim as I ticked the box on the application ( I wasn't contesting this as I was "told" to tick the box to be eligible. Card company (capital one by the way) said this was there final decision. I wrote two more letters to appeal. I sent these recorded delivered. Both have been completely ignored by capital one. Disgusting service! Contacted financial ombudsman. They were helpful. Completed all forms. They took on my case. Waited 3 months. Just heard today that they have rejected my claim. Gutted!!!!! Very disappointed and frustrated. They claim that we filled in a postal application and we ticked ppi box and hat form had an option not to take ppi. I explained that we were told that we had to tick this box. FO's response.... We need to provide proof that we were told this. !!!! Strangely We are not in the habit of recording our phone calls logging them and keeping them for over 12 years!!!! Not giving up and am going to appeal... I think it is totally unreasonable that we have to prove evidence. Over the years we have had credit cards and loans and have never before or since taken out ppi as we don't need it. This was the only occasion we did. Anyone else had a similar experience??? Feel really let down :-(

Dovah_diva

It is not unusual for the applicant to have to prove their case. Fact it, you didn't have to take the PPI, you could have rejected it at the time - or even a month or two after getting the card.

Accept the FOS decision and move on.

dunstonh

Applied for a credit card. Was told over the phone I had to take out ppi in order to get the card and I therefore reluctantly ticked the ppi box on the application.

Do you have any evidence to support this?

The said I had no claim as I ticked the box on the application ( I wasn't contesting this as I was "told" to tick the box to be eligible.

And again, what evidence exists to support that allegation?

Card company (capital one by the way) said this was there final decision. I wrote two more letters to appeal. I sent these recorded delivered. Both have been completely ignored by capital one. Disgusting service!

Cap One actually have a very good complaints service. They are generally regarded to treat people fairly with complaints. This is largely due to a period in the past when they had issues and didnt. They gave you their response and said it was final.

Contacted financial ombudsman. They were helpful. Completed all forms. They took on my case. Waited 3 months. Just heard today that they have rejected my claim.

Statistically, that was always the most likely outcome. Cap One run around 6-20% uphold rate at the FOS depending on the period. That is one of the lowest there is.

FO's response.... We need to provide proof that we were told this. !!!!

Not sure why you feel that it strange or unusual. UK law does generally require the person making the allegation to support it with facts.

I think it is totally unreasonable that we have to prove evidence.

The opposite is to believe every allegation made. Such as, you stole £100 from my wallet. You now need to pay me it.

Anyone else had a similar experience??? Feel really let down

Your complaint is very very weak. It is relying on a hypothetical phone call where the person on the phone would have had no financial gain or incentive to tell you to have PPI. It may have happened. It maybe your memory is not good. It may be that you are trying it on (not saying you are but people do). However, without evidence it happened, then it is not likely to succeed.

The FOS hasnt let you down. You are asking them to do something different to UK law and logic.

Unhappy_rose

Thanks dovah diva... In hindsight we should have just cancelled the ppi after a couple of months. This didn't occur to us I guess because we thought it was a condition of having the card. Yes moving on now sadly without success.

Thanks also dunstonh for your very thorough reply. In response I guess we naively thought cap one would have evidence of the sales call conversation...but of course they don't ... For what ever reason... It wouldn't have been in their interest to have it anyway (convenient!) sadly this is a case of our word versus theirs and we have no proof so we lose out. Not particularly fair but I guess life isn't. We can't claim although we were victims of miss selling but hope others have more success. In response to your comments on proof... I found the burden of proof on us strange because it was a phone conversation and how could we have recorded that ... Or why at the time would we have recorded that.??...Having worked in the financial services for ten years ... In sales roles... Calls are recorded for precisely these reasons, to review should complaints arise. Also the advice given on sites such as these strongly suggested the burden of proof lay towards the financial institution to prove that they did not miss sell. In addition I do uphold my opinion that capital ones customer service has been really poor... My opinion due to my personal dealings with them. And finally a wee bit cheeky to suggest poor memory of the conversation .... We never take ppi that's why this occasion was memorable and to infer we were trying it on is also a wee bit cheeky too.... Are claim was 100% genuine but sadly yes a weak case as we cannot prove what was said during that fateful conversation:-(

magpiecottage

FOS can only look at the evidence as it is presented. To be fair to whoever investigated the case at Capital One, so can they.

Once upon a time, financial institutions offered what amounted to jobs for life so there were people around who had sold Noah boat insurance and could remember everything. Nowadays you would be lucky to find somebody who was there five years ago.

In your case the evidence is against you. Clearly if what you say is true that is tough but it is a longstanding legal principle that he who asserts must prove it is more likely than not that their assertion is true (and not merely equally likely). If you think about it, that is essential or everybody could make spurious claims against anybody and the legal system would descend into anarchy.

[Deleted User]

Unhappy_rose wrote: »

Hi, I have diligently followed the advice and templates on this site trying to reclaim ppi on a credit card.

The advice is sound, but you still need valid complaint reasons in order to be successful.

Unhappy_rose wrote: »

Card company (capital one by the way) said this was their final decision. I wrote two more letters to appeal. I sent these recorded delivered. Both have been completely ignored by capital one. Disgusting service!

So, despite them sending you a full and final decision you sent two further letters basically with the same argument and then wonder why you received no reply?

Unhappy_rose wrote: »

I explained that we were told that we had to tick this box. FO's response.... We need to provide proof that we were told this. !!!!

Your problem is that you only submitted a hearsay type complaint for which you can provide no evidence. You say the Bank "told" you to tick the box, but you can never prove this.

Unhappy_rose wrote: »

Not giving up and am going to appeal... I think it is totally unreasonable that we have to prove evidence.

You really are wasting your time doing this.

dunstonh

It wouldn't have been in their interest to have it anyway (convenient!)

It wouldnt have been in the interest of the person on the phone to tell you that you should have PPI either. Unless the person on the phone is the one actually processing the application or selling the product, they get no recognition for it. At the point you phoned, you were not a customer. There would not have been any file on you. So, even if they did record calls, they would have had no way to log that call against your record. It would have been handled by the general contact centre.

I found the burden of proof on us strange because it was a phone conversation and how could we have recorded that ... Or why at the time would we have recorded that.??

Law places the burden of proof on the person making the allegation. However, financial firms are also required to use their own records to see if what you say was correct. I am an IFA. We often ask providers for information but always request it in writing because phone call information can be wrong. Can be denied and more importantly, it provides no reliable audit trail for evidence.

Also the advice given on sites such as these strongly suggested the burden of proof lay towards the financial institution to prove that they did not miss sell.

That is in part correct. However, that is based on the evidence available. Their evidence shows they received a postal application where you asked for it. That is pretty strong proof that it was not mis-sold (on paper). You are adding an unprovable element to it that cannot be supported.

I say ghosts dont exist. You say ghosts do exist. I say prove that ghosts exist and you cant. You say to me prove ghosts do not exist. I cant. Ends in deadlock.

[Deleted User]

dunstonh wrote: »

I say ghosts dont exist. You say ghosts do exist. I say prove that ghosts exist and you cant. You say to me prove ghosts do not exist. I cant. Ends in deadlock.

A good analogy to explain why "hearsay" complaints usually get nowhere (unless a different fault is found as part of the investigation).

roonaldo

Unhappy_rose wrote: »

I found the burden of proof on us strange because it was a phone conversation and how could we have recorded that ... Or why at the time would we have recorded that.??...Having worked in the financial services for ten years ... In sales roles... Calls are recorded for precisely these reasons, to review should complaints arise.

No, they are kept for training and monitoring purposes and not kept for an indefinite period. As you worked in financial services you will know they dont keep call recordings for 9 years. They also have no obligation to record calls.

Also the advice given on sites such as these strongly suggested the burden of proof lay towards the financial institution to prove that they did not miss sell.

Correct, BUT they wont have conversations noted in the documentary evidence of such things as "he said" and "she said" so there will be no evidence of your allegation. Therefore the onus is on you to prove it.