Failed 'appeal'... for parking in my own space at home?! Advice please?

MikeyTen4

Hi everyone.

I'm in need of a bit of help since I've recently got a ticket and I'm unsure where I stand based on a few specific circumstances.

Before I begin, I've already taken a look through the information on here (the forum won't let me link to it!), which has filled me in on plenty, but still leaves me feeling uncertain about just where I stand and what I should do.

I live in a flat on private land. I'm a private tennant, but the landowner is a firm of some sort who employ TPS (Total Parking Solutions) to 'manage' our car park where I have a single numbered space. When I moved in in April we had a permit left in a drawer - no other info. My girlfriend and I have been using this permit between us since then (sometimes I park on the road).

On the morning of Sunday 24th November I walked outside to find a notice on my car headed 'PCN' - a 'fine' for £90, or £50 if I pay within 2 weeks. This is in my own parking space. On inspection I found that the permit had slid off the dash and into the passenger footwell, where it must have been since returning home from Work on the Friday night. The ticket appeared to have been put on my car on Saturday morning.

At this point I took a photo of the permit, put it back in place, and then emailed TPS' 'appeals' address with the photo attached. I politely stated the circumstances, that I do have a permit and the right to park there, and that the car is registered to the address which the parking bay belongs to and which the permit must be registered to. In my email to them I stated...

"Given that the permit was not on the dashboard, I do appreciate the reason why one of your attendants has of course issued this ticket - there was nothing to show them that the car was rightfully parked there of course, and it's their job to try to ensure the car park is only used by residents with permits. But I have of course now proven the car is rightfully parked there and I do have a permit. My own logic would would suggest that TPS' responsibility is to ensure that the residents car park is available to and used only by residents (e.g. me), and I hope you'll agree that it isn't TPS's place and wouldn't be right to punish me for a minor failing (i.e. the permit falling out of view), given the proof of my right to park there."

It was after this however that I then read the advice on this site which I've linked to above. Immediately my first concern was that the first of those pages states that if I contact TPS with an intention not to pay, then "Importantly, in any correspondence... Don't state you're 'appealing', merely that you're refusing to pay.

So, we skip forward to today. I've just received this email..

"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your correspondence, the content of which has been noted. Total Parking Solutions Ltd do not dispute that the appellant was in possession of a valid permit; however, the terms of parking are clear that any permit must be displayed. A requirement that a valid permit be displayed includes a requirement that any information confirming its validity be made visible. This includes any dates, location or bay number indicating when, and where, the permit is valid, and also any marks which show the permit is an original, and not a copy.

The Terms and Conditions of parking at this location are clearly displayed at the entrance and throughout the site. The onus is with the driver to ensure that when parking on private property they do so in accordance with the Terms and Conditions. Your vehicle was logged by patrol officer as the vehicle was parked without displaying a valid parking permit which breaches the Terms and Conditions of this site.

Unfortunately after careful consideration your representation has again been rejected, as the vehicle was parked in contravention of the Conditions of Use. It follows therefore, that the PCN was correctly issued and the amount of £50.00 remains outstanding.

To avoid incurring further administration costs please arrange your remittance within 14 days from the date of this letter.

Please find attached a POPLA independent appeal form.

You now have a number of options;

1. Pay the parking charge at the prevailing price of £50.00 within 14 days. Please note after this time the parking charge notice will rise to £90.00.

2. 2. Make a POPLA- The Independent Appeals Service by completing the accompanying form. Please be advised that if you opt for the independent arbitration of your case, the Parking charge notice will be £90.00.

3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies due via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with court action against you.

Regards
PARKING CONTROL DEPARTMENT

I have to admit.. they do a good job of running scare tactics. But I'm fuming. To me it seems clear they're more about rinsing out what they can as 'punishment' for breaching their 'terms', than they are ensuring my own parking space is used only by me. I'm also baffled by the last part of the first paragraph of their email... it seems to say that as well as displaying the permit, I'm expected to display something to prove to their 'attendent' that my permit is valid and relative to the parking bay?! SERIOUSLY?! I'd like to also point out there was no documentation with the rpermit when I moved in - just the permit in a drawer.

A requirement that a valid permit be displayed includes a requirement that any information confirming its validity be made visible. This includes any dates, location or bay number indicating when, and where, the permit is valid, and also any marks which show the permit is an original, and not a copy.

My questions now are as follows...

1. Have I put myself in some sort of worse position by using the word 'appeal' in my first email to them? Have I put myself in a worse position by actually wording my email as I did?

2. Would you suggest it's best to now move on to POPLA, or simply ignore them completely? The second advice page I've linked to up there states that you shouldn't use 'excuses' like the 'permit slipping' if you do.. which makes me think it's pointless going down that route. Is it?

3. The info I've read says that ignoring them won't effect my credit rating, which was one concern. So, if I do ignore them, what should I expect to happen or to come through my door in the future?

4. Lastly, do you think it might be worth contacting the landowners directly to complain about it? Or could that make the matter worse? I'm already worried that TPS might have the right to revoke the single permit I have if I don't pay up... I just don't know what to expect.

I'd really appreciate your advice.

Cheers
Mike

martmonk

MikeyTen4 wrote: »

My questions now are as follows...

1. Have I put myself in some sort of worse position by using the word 'appeal' in my first email to them? NO

Have I put myself in a worse position by actually wording my email as I did?
You appear to have identified yourself as driver so maybe slightly but you still win at POPLA

2. Would you suggest it's best to now move on to POPLA,
YES
or simply ignore them completely?
I thought you stated you'd read the stickys?

The second advice page I've linked to up there states that you shouldn't use 'excuses' like the 'permit slipping' if you do.. which makes me think it's pointless going down that route. Is it?
YES I thought you stated you'd read the stickys?

3. The info I've read says that ignoring them won't effect my credit rating, which was one concern. So, if I do ignore them, what should I expect to happen or to come through my door in the future?
More letters possibly ending in small claims court

4. Lastly, do you think it might be worth contacting the landowners directly to complain about it?
YES
Or could that make the matter worse?
NO
I'm already worried that TPS might have the right to revoke the single permit I have if I don't pay up... I just don't know what to expect.

I'd really appreciate your advice.

Cheers
Mike

see my answers above and read the POPLA decisions sticky

MikeyTen4

Hi Martmonk

Great, and speedy to - thanks

Well, that's given me a bit of direction. As I said yes, I have been reading the stickies, but it was points such as...

"ALWAYS USE POPLA! WE WIN THESE APPEALS HERE AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE LINKS ABOVE.

DO NOT SEND A MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES 'NORMAL APPEAL' AT POPLA - NOTHING ABOUT THE PERMIT SLIPPING DOWN OR EXCUSES!"

..that left me wondering what to do regarding POPLA, since that circumstance directly relates to how I've appealed so far to TPS directly.

But thanks for the answers, it's put my mind at ease regarding the main points I was worried about. I've seen the links to the 'How to win at POPLA' thread and the 'POPLA decisions' thread, so I'll head to those next.

Cheers.

MikeyTen4

Hi all

There's been a development, so I just wanted to update this and see what opinions people have regarding what I've now been told. Admittedly, I have so far not read the sticky's mentioned above in their entirety due to a lack of time in the last 5 days, but I fully intend to.

Well... yesterday I contacted the company who I believed to be the owners of the leasehold where my flat and car park are situated. I've had a response form someone this morning who has told me they are not the leasehold owners, but act on their behalf. This person is willing to speak to TPS on my behalf and ask them to reconsider, BUT they have stated that they don't have the power to force them to drop the PCN if they've issued it within their T&C's - in this case 'no permit clearly displayed'.

They've also told me that the reason TPS have upheld their PCN on appeal is because, basically, they don't know that I didn't simply give my permit to a visitor on the intention that if I got a PCN myself, then it would be easier for me to shrug it off by saying "I'm a resident and I do have a permit."

What do you guys make of that?

Cheers

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

In the grand scheme of things it doesnt matter a great deal, simple because you will win at popla with our help
https://www.parkingticketappeals.org.uk

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

MikeyTen4 wrote: »

Hi Martmonk

Great, and speedy to - thanks

Well, that's given me a bit of direction. As I said yes, I have been reading the stickies, but it was points such as...

"ALWAYS USE POPLA! WE WIN THESE APPEALS HERE AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE LINKS ABOVE.

DO NOT SEND A MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES 'NORMAL APPEAL' AT POPLA - NOTHING ABOUT THE PERMIT SLIPPING DOWN OR EXCUSES!"

..that left me wondering what to do regarding POPLA, since that circumstance directly relates to how I've appealed so far to TPS directly.

But thanks for the answers, it's put my mind at ease regarding the main points I was worried about. I've seen the links to the 'How to win at POPLA' thread and the 'POPLA decisions' thread, so I'll head to those next.

Cheers.

It makes no difference how you appealed to tps to be frank.

Put that appeal out of your mind and appeal to popla using the winnning methods
https://www.parkingticketappeals.org.uk - Parking eye

martmonk

from Coupon-Mad's excellent NEWBIES sticky, all you need is there;


POPLA = Parking on Private Land Appeals (the second stage 'independent' appeal service which is applicable in England/Wales ONLY).
How to win at POPLA (2013 information). POPLA decisions (do not start reading there at page 1 - read back from the most recent at the end, and learn!).

BrightonandHove

You now need to construct a POPLA appeal. Here's one you can alter that I have used around permit parking. MAKE SURE YOU READ IT CAREFULLY AND ALTER IT TO SUIT YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES !!!!!!!!!!!

Dear POPLA,
RE : <Parking Companies Name> PCN – Ref xxxx / POPLA Code – Ref xxxxxxxxxxx

I'm writing this to appeal a charge sent to me by <Parking Companies Name>. This occurred after my vehicle allegedly in a permit holders only space at <Address>, on <Date>. <Parking Companies Name> claim that the vehicle's driver owes them £xxx (reduced if early payment is made) for overstaying. I now want to set out why I want you to cancel this charge.


(1) <Parking Companies Name>'s lack of legal enablement to override residents leases and rental agreements
As a leaseholder/tenancy agreement holder the lease / tenancy agreement clearly states an entitlement to the use of the parking spaces at the complex. The lease / tenancy agreement does not specific any conditions on this entitlement – i.e. a specific parking space must be used or a permit must be displayed.
<Parking Companies Name> have not produced any evidence that they are enabled to override the prior rights, covenants and easements enjoyed by the residents under their lease/rental agreements. I therefore require <Parking Companies Name> to provide written evidence in the form of a legal document to prove they have the right to override the lease.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT](2) <Parking Companies Name>'s lack of legal capacity to enforce/issue Fixed Charge Notices
In their correspondence with me, <Parking Companies Name> haven't produced any evidence to demonstrate that they have the necessary legal capacity to charge the driver of a vehicle using a space without a displayed permit. Nor that they have any proprietary interest in this particular piece of land.
Accordingly, I require <Parking Companies Name> to produce an unredacted, up-to-date and signed copy of the contract or agreement with the person or organisation that contracted <Parking Companies Name> – one which states that they are entitled to pursue these matters through issuing PCNs and through the courts. I require that this is an actual copy and not simply a document which claims that such a contract or agreement exists. A witness statement will not satisfy this requirement.
Equally I require <Parking Companies Name> to demonstrate that the person or organisation they have contracted with has the legal capacity from the landowner to form such a contract with <Parking Companies Name>. I do not believe they do. <Parking Companies Name> should produce an unredacted, up-to-date and signed copy of the contract or agreement between landowner and the person or organisation that contracted <Parking Companies Name>.



(3) <Parking Companies Name>'s lack of signage / poor signage
The BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice makes clear that there should be signage at the entrance to the parking area to allow drivers the opportunity to understand they are entering into a contract.
The <Parking Companies Name> entrance signage at the site is not at the entrance but set back after the first few parking spaces that are covered by the alleged contract. The text on the sign is also too small for a driver in a moving car to read.
There is no signage facing a driver as they enter a parking space – i.e. in front. There is only limited signage throughout the complex – most of it well away from the actual parking spaces. What signage there is has been fixed underneath other signs – such as No Ball Games – which are bigger and in very large text. This draws drivers attention away from the <Parking Companies Name> signage.
Accordingly, I require <Parking Companies Name> to provide the following :
Ø A current map of all the areas and bays of the complex where the permit scheme is and is not applicable, as agreed with the landowner/contracting party
Ø Contemporaneous photos of the actual signs on site taken from the view of the driver of a car at the entrance and in the car park
Ø A definitive map of where these signs are in that particular car park

(4) The <Parking Companies Name> charge does not reflect a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The sum claimed cannot be a genuine pre-estimate of loss, as any contractual breach attracts the exact same apparent amount of loss, whether no permit was displayed or a car was parked over a white line. If the sum claimed were a genuine pre-estimate of loss, it follows that the loss cannot be £60 on days 1 to 21, then £100 thereafter. This is clearly an arbitrary sum invented by <Parking Companies Name>.
Equally, as there are no charges to leaseholders to using the parking spaces, there cannot be any loss to the landowner should a leaseholder fail to display a permit.
<Parking Companies Name> have failed to provide a true pre-estimate of loss as set out in paragraph 19 of the BPA’s CoP, v3 of June 2013.
I therefore require that <Parking Companies Name> provide a detailed breakdown of the £xxx charge to show how the landowner has lost this amount due to a permit not being displayed by a leaseholder. It should be noted that losses cannot include operating costs such as wages, uniforms, signage and general running costs.
Given that <Parking Companies Name> have presented no evidence as to how their costs relate to the event in question, I suggest that the charge is disproportionate and accordingly not in line with Schedule 2(1)(e) of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, nor as described in the BPA Code as above.

MikeyTen4

Great, thanks everyone Better find the time and get on with it then!

@BrightonandHove - Thanks very much for that. By including and adapting any of the points you've posted above, I assume you also mean of course NOT to include points which are outright mismatched to my situation? For example, point 3 wouldn't apply to me at all, since they do have signage. With regards to elements such as their legal capacity, I could force them to provide proof, but I'm fairly certain they would have that proof if they needed to provide it. But then other points could very well be put to good use in my circumstances

I have to admit, I've had a look through the 'POPLA Desicions' thread and didn't feel too confident after reading the result of appeals such as #54, which is nearly a carbon copy of my circumstances and failed. But of course, it all depends on the grounds used at appeal.

I've got some reading to do!

Cheers

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

Concentrate on pre estimate of loss and no contract

MikeyTen4

Great, good to know, thanks again.