Tenancy End Dates

Patchwork_Girl

I know this comes up a lot and I have read the relevant thread but I just want someone to confim I am correct (and not going mad!). Our latest fixed term ended on 18th October and we are now on an SPT. I have just given notice to end the tenancy on 17th January, and the estate agent has replied to say it will end on 31st Jan (we pay on 1st of each month).

Am I right?

Thanks very much!

theartfullodger

Without reading the tenancy agreement it is difficult to be certain but, assuming no other weird dates or clause, and assume monthly rental payments the SPTs run 18th to 17th so your notice must give AT LEAST one month;s notice (from date-of-service .. which is not the same as date-it-woz-sent) ending on a 17th.

The rent is paid 1st, yet letting agent (how untypical..) doesn't understand that tenancy periods - & therefore notice dates - don't have to or always do line up with rent payment dates..

If in doubt 'phone Shelter **free** 0808 800 4444

Cheers!

Patchwork_Girl

Ok - thanks for that. I've just dug out our tenancy agreement and found this clause:

"If the tenant intends to vacate at the end of the fixed term, or at any later date, he agrees to give the Landlord at least one month's prior notice in writing."

"While the tenancy is periodic the one month's written Notice must expire the day before a Rent Due Date."

theartfullodger

Not sure if that clause is valid: S5 of HA 1988
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/5
says, clause 3(e)

....except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy.

(An AST is but a special sort of assured tenancy...)
- which means after fixed term ends & periodic starts any stuff/clauses about determination (=notice) doesn't carry on .. so strongly suspect that clause can be ignored but 'phone Shelter 0808 800 4444 & check (& let us know what they ssay, please///!!)

cakeforbrains

On what date did your tenancy start? If it's the 18th of the month, then you need to give notice by the 17th and be out the following 17th (or earlier).

It's sounds like, like us, you pay your rent a couple of weeks early (on the 1st). Your rent is actually due on the 18th, but you pay it on the first. Assuming you are paying in advance and there are no arrears then it'll work like this:

You pay rent on 1st Dec, therefore you are paid up until the 17th Jan. No more rent is due.
You give notice by the 17th of Dec.
You are out by the 17th Jan (one month's notice).

This is how I understand it and your situation sounds very similar to ours (except that our rental date is the 12th). I'm planning to sign a contract for the new house on the 2nd Jan (because of bank holiday) and because we're paid up until the 11th Jan in our current house we'll have those 9 days to come backwards and forwards and make sure that things are clean etc. My landlady is happy with this but, that said, there's no LA to deal with here.

G_M

theartfullodger wrote: »

Not sure if that clause is valid: S5 of HA 1988
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/5
says, clause 3(e)
(An AST is but a special sort of assured tenancy...)
- which means after fixed term ends & periodic starts any stuff/clauses about determination (=notice) doesn't carry on .. so strongly suspect that clause can be ignored but 'phone Shelter 0808 800 4444 & check (& let us know what they ssay, please///!!)

Agree.

And Disagree.

The Housing Act specifies how a Landlord must give notice in a SPT. The Act omitted to specify how a tenant should give notice.

Recognising this, a Court of Appeal decision (see Laine and Mitchell v Cadwallader & Cadwallader (2001) ), ruled that one month Notice, ending with a tenancy period, was required by a tenant (whatever the contract may say), based on common law.

Thus as artful says, the rent date should be ignored and the Tenancy Periods (18th - 17th ) followed. Rent in the final month should be paid pro-rata for the number of days rent is due (daily rate= monthly rent x 12 / 365).

Patchwork_Girl

Thank you all for the clarification. Unfortunately the agent has replied once again insisting that they "require 1 full periods notice and a period is defined as the time for which rent is paid, 1st - 31st." (I'm doing this by email at the moment - I will, of course be putting it all in real writing too). I guess I need to ring Shelter to clarify - I was hoping not to bother them with this but I need to be 100% sure before I dig my heels in!

theartfullodger

Thank you GM for clarification: you are of course quite right.

Patchwork - you notice (in writing) is valid but get confirmation from Shelter.

Leave by 17th. Question is, will agent/landlord take legal action for rent to 31st - I doubt it.

Maybe simply point agent at this thread, they might get some free training (if capable of learning....)

Cheers!

Patchwork_Girl

Thank you. Not got through to shelter yet but gave just had a frustrating telephone conversation with the letting agent (I thought I'd try the friendly approach!). They are 100% certain they are correct and that, once our fixed term came the the end, the periodic tenancy reverted to the payment dates (1st - 31st) rather than the previous tenancy dates. I'm not sure what to do except follow up with a letter of notice for the 17th and work out the last rent payment myself.

It's even more annoying that I rang them last Sat and spoke to a trainee to confirm the dates (ahe agreed that it was the 17th - in fact she thought 17th December would be our leaving date!) - if I had given notice in writing then we wouldn't be having this conversation (they'd have let us go on 31st Dec!).

theartfullodger

It happens: My youngest son got a section21 notice from a letting agent who had won "best agent in his bit of London" award. It took 4 goes of calmly & carefully worded emails to them to get them to realise that the wording & dates were wrong (we had to force them to check with head-office). In the end son & his housemates were given 1.5 month's rent-free & written good references to go when LL wanted them out (could have got more).

You have to understand that in Engerland (but not Scotland) an agent needs no training, no qualifications, no criminal records check, no personal hygiene, no nuffink. Labour had been bringing in letting agency regulation, Dave Cameron decided not to: Tells you all you need to know about Cameron...

Tried emailing agent a calm, polite, note suggesting them look here??

Sigh!

Cheers! (I'm a LL btw since 2000...)

G_M

G_M wrote: »

Rent in the final month should be paid pro-rata for the number of days rent is due (daily rate= monthly rent / 12 x 365).

Ooops:

Monthly rent x 12 / 365

:shocked:

(post above corrected)