Best option?

edited 9 December 2013 at 1:31PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
21 replies 1.6K views
WouldliketoknowWouldliketoknow Forumite
14 Posts
edited 9 December 2013 at 1:31PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
Hi everyone,

I hope you can help me as I think I have a couple of options on how to respond to a PCN that has just arrived through my door - but need you advice as to which one would be the optimal route... (Please!)

So the PCN, from G24 ltd, has an obvious flaw in that it states that my vehicle was outside the Tile company in Ashton Under Lyne at 18:09:59 according to the photographs submitted.

Now - my vehicle was parked outside a Tile Giant, but in a completely different location in London.
Furthermore, Tile Giant has an agreement with the company (a banqueting suite) who reside on the top floor of the building, that on event nights specific patrons can park in front of the building. This is on a number plate basis -and ours was provided in advance as the hosts of the event. Additionally, there were 9 other vehicles parked alongside us and we are the only ones to receive a notice... so far(?!)

So the question is - do I appeal based upon the above information, or should I appeal on the basis that the parking charge is unenforceable and go down the Popla route?

I want to win, but I also don't want to tip my hand on the wrong location front for fear that they just issue a new PCN with correct information.

I understand from reading the threads that G24 ltd has a history of refusing all appeals - so I'd really appreciate some sage advice.

Thanks in advance for any help given - and apologies if I have made some faux pas in this post.
«13

Replies

  • StromaStroma Forumite
    8K Posts
    Uniform Washer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Okay a couple of questions

    1) did you get this notice within 14 days?
    2) are you the registered keeper?

    Thanks
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    :beer: Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member :beer:
  • edited 11 December 2013 at 12:41PM
    WouldliketoknowWouldliketoknow Forumite
    14 Posts
    edited 11 December 2013 at 12:41PM
    It was sent and received within the 14 day period and the registered keeper is aware.

    (Sorry - really should have included that in the initial post) - Thanks for the help.
  • edited 30 November 2013 at 4:44PM
    StromaStroma Forumite
    8K Posts
    Uniform Washer
    ✭✭✭✭
    edited 30 November 2013 at 4:44PM
    Well you need to send a soft appeal like the one below, they will likely turn you down, but you can then go to popla to appeal to them. Send it via mail through the post office to get a free certificate of posting, and email them as well


    Name
    Address


    Dear ticketers


    I am as the registered keeper of (reg) are in receipt of your parking invoice xxxxxx dated xxxxxx. I deny liability to your company so wish to invoke your appeals process on the points below.

    1) your notice to keeper is invalid as it identifies the wrong location of parking
    2) this charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    3) your signage is inadequate and does not comply with the bpa code of practice
    4) permission from the retailer was granted to park there
    5) you do not have authority or contract to issue these invoices

    So you are invited now to cancel this invoice, if you reject please provide a popla verification code so we can cost you £27 + vat to get it cancelled.

    Faithfully
    The registered keeper
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    :beer: Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member :beer:
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
    100.2K Posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    There's also the fact that G24 Notice to Keeper letters are not compliant with POFA 2012 in wording. I would include that too - either search the forum for other G24 cases and find the flaws discussed recently, or compare your NTK wording to POFA 2012 Schedule 4 paragraph 9 (easier than it sounds, and linked in the 'NEWBIES, READ THIS FIRST!' sticky thread at the top, which is a complete info thread which you will have already read I hope). Even if you don't include the flaws at this appeal stage you must seek them out for POPLA stage as a flawed NTK is 'not properly given' (= a nullity).

    There's also the fact that this is a classic case to complain to the owner occupiers (as per the 'successful complaints about PPCs' sticky thread also near the top).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Guys_DadGuys_Dad Forumite
    11K Posts
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are getting good advice on the appeal front, but I want to come from another tack.

    You write " Tile Giant has an agreement with the company (a banqueting suite) who reside on the top floor of the building, that on event nights specific patrons can park in front of the building. This is on a number plate basis -and ours was provided in advance as the hosts of the event".

    First question - so why did this go wrong? To whom did you supply the registrations?

    I would ask them what went wrong. It may be at their end or at the PPC's. Try to get them to sort it out.

    Do this in parallel with the other excellent advice given.
  • Thanks so much for all the advice - I'll let you know how it goes!

    Best
  • StromaStroma Forumite
    8K Posts
    Uniform Washer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bear in min mind that it's likely they will turn it down, on that rejection they must provide a popla verification code, come back here for more help if it happens , don't be disheartened .
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    :beer: Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member :beer:
  • Update:

    I've discovered that this is a result of bad communication. The car park is shared by two business' the one that we were visiting takes ownership at 18:00 and the other is Tile Giant. Having been directed by a member of staff to park in front of the business, the car was then vacated and we went to attend to our duties.
    Apparently, the manager / owner of Tile Giant was 'blocked in' by the car and someone was dispatched to find the driver and ask them to move. The driver complied with the request to move the car - and thought no more of it.
    Apparently the person who was blocked in then took it upon themselves to alert G24 - despite this being after 18:00.
    We have asked for the Tile Giant person to cancel the ticket - but it appears he has taken great offence at being kept waiting. We have offered an apology for keeping him waiting to no avail. The business we are attending is unable to cancel the ticket as the Tile person issued it - however they are trying to liaise and will provide written evidence that we had permission to park there and that the photographic evidence is of a different location to that claimed by G24 LTD!

    Just received a rejection from G24 - it seems a standard copy paste job as they failed to address the fact that they have the wrong location... but this is what they sent.





    RE: Contractual Parking Charge Notice xxxxx

    Thank you for your email.

    After consideration of the information provided by you, your dispute has been unsuccessful as you were not authorised to park on the day in question and the Contractual Parking Charge Notice still applies. As we have extensively investigated this Contractual Parking Charge Notice and provided you with the results of our investigation, no further investigation will be undertaken.

    The photographs provide evidence of the parking event that occurred which show that the driver breached the terms and conditions of parking which were clearly displayed on the signage in the car park. If you wish to receive further documentation, these will be supplied once you make a proper request under the Data Protection Act. The fact that such documentation might be used in any Court proceedings is not a legitimate way to circumvent the Data Protection Act.

    This is not applicable, as our Contractual Parking Charge Notice is based on a breach of the terms and conditions of parking as advertised on signage displayed throughout the car park, not trespass.

    Our claim is not based on trespass, but on a breach of contract.

    We have taken legal advice and we have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss but are likely to amount to "liquidated damages". This is because the Court's position is that where the parties to a contract agree to fix the amount which is to be paid by way of damages in the event of a breach of contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated in this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is likely to be classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and do not amount to a "penalty". You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed).

    We confirm that it is not necessary for us to provide you with a breakdown of our parking charges at this time. That information is confidential, but is available and will be provided to the Court in the course of Court proceedings, if necessary, and if payment has not been made before then.

    Our parking charges are not punitive, unfair nor unreasonable, as suggested. They are in line with the British Parking Association's guidelines. The amount of our parking charges are also in line with the parking charges accepted by the Court as being legally permissible to claim. See ParkingEye v Somerfield Stores (2011), Combined Parking Solutions v Dorrington (2012) and Combined Parking Solutions v Blackburn (2007).

    Furthermore, the Protection of Freedoms Act confirms that parking charges can be levied on private land.

    Schedule 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 is irrelevant to the point raised because our terms and conditions of parking do not have any sort of indemnity clause within them. If you make this suggestion because you were not the driver at the time of the breach of the terms and conditions of parking, but only the registered keeper and therefore believe we are asking you to indemnify us in relation to the driver's breach of contract, this is not the correct legal analysis. We rely on the statutory authority contained within the Protection of Freedoms Act to enable us to seek payment from the registered keeper (if the driver does not pay within 28 days) and this overrides Section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 are also not relevant to the point raised because the Protection of Freedoms Act has come into force since then.

    We operate the car park in accordance with the BPA/AOS guidlines, I refer you to section 7.1.

    "7.1 If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent) before you can start operating on the land in question. The authorisation must give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of the management and enforcement of the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner requires you to keep to the Code of Practice, and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges, through the courts if necessary."

    The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act), (Schedule 4), which governs parking on private land, provides a definition for "parking charge" and "adequate notice" of such private parking charges. The relevant sections of Schedule 4 to the Act state :

    “parking charge”

    (a) in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, and

    (b) in the case of a relevant obligation arising as a result of a trespass or other tort, means a sum in the nature of damages ...

    ... “relevant obligation” means
    (a) an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or
    (b) an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land; ...

    ... The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles

    (when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).
    For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by:
    ... (b) ... the display of one or more notices which
    (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
    (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land".

    In this instance a parking charge has been issued based on the fact that the driver of your vehicle entered into a contract with us (by the act of parking the vehicle) and our signage (which states the terms and conditions of parking) having been clearly displayed in the car park.

    The Act permits parking charges to be rendered on private land, and the case of Parking Eye Limited v Somerfield Stores Limited [2012] EWCA Civ 1338 (Court of Appeal) held that (taking into account inflation) the parking company was entitled to claim a parking charge of a similar amount to that which we have charged, and therefore your reference to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 is not of any relevance in the context of this parking charge.

    You should also be aware that the amount of our parking charges accords with the recommendations of the British Parking Association, of which we are a member.

    There are sufficient signs at the entrance to and in prominent locations throughout the car park displaying the terms and conditions. Your are welcome to revisit the site to view the signage, we advise you to adhere to the terms and conditions of parking when visit the site.
    Our signage complies with the British Parking Association's requirements.

    You now have a number of options from which to choose:

    1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the prevailing price of £60.00 within 14 days. Please note that after this time the discounted rate will no longer apply and the Parking Charge Notice will rise to £100.00. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0845 452 7777 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.

    2. Make an appeal to POPLA within 28 days - The Independent Appeals Service by completing the accompanying form or by making your appeal online at xxx your POPLA verification code is: xxx. Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case, the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate of £60.00 will be at end. If you opt to pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA.

    3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

    Customer Services
    G24 Ltd
  • My question - is it worth continuing the G24 appeal route - or should I go straight to POPLA - now that I have the code....
  • Popla is your only option, which you should now do.
    Prepare your Popla appeal,look at what wins on the popla decisions thread etc and post up your draft. DONT include anyting that happened on the day etc
    Proud to be a member of the Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Gang.:D:T
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