Should Scotland be an independent country?

Evelyn2014 · 3 December 2013 at 2:57PM

zagubov wrote: »

Here's what's weird and a bit asymmetrical. Pro- Scottish-independence critics of the Government moaned about Maggie and Dave and many other leaders because they were rubbish and incompetent and not because they were English. They lambasted the Westminster government but never referred to their nationality or ethnicity in any way or criticised their Englishness.

And yet anti-Scottish-independence critics of the government /cabinet or ruling party make much of their Scottish composition and never seem to let it go unmentioned. How creepy and racist is that?:eek:

You know, that is a fact that has never ,ever crossed my mind? Much as I dislike Thatcher/Cameron etc...I've never once thought about their nationality. I've heard so many times about 'these bloody Scots, Gordon Brown, Ali Darling etc" who caused the *Scottish* banking collapse (yet another myth) but I've never once thought these things about anyone else?:cool: That's quite a strange one..

wiogs · 3 December 2013 at 2:59PM

smerral wrote: »

:rotfl::rotfl::T:T

Although it's true that these polls are unscientific and BOTH SETS OF ACTIVISTS are likely to run campaigns, just about every internet/straw poll produces similar results, in line with TV debates, reports from activists on the ground etc. etc. Maybe you will take next year's YES vote with a pinch of salt too? :rotfl::rotfl:

Whatever the outcome of the referendum I do think it is likely to carry more weight than a mere poll.

wiogs · 3 December 2013 at 3:03PM

glassgirl wrote: »

It's a shame that you only think of this as a battle between Alex Salmond and David Cameron. Both these politicians are mere mortals and the result of this vote will extend far beyond their lifetimes.

Its not about individual politicians or party politics - its about giving meaningful democratic control back to ordinary Scots. Our votes do next to nothing to influence the outcome of UK elections so why would anyone in London bother listening to us?

If we have our own government our votes will carry much more weight so why would you wish to vote against having more control over your elected government?

How would, in an independent Scotland, my vote carry more weight?

funky83 · 3 December 2013 at 3:18PM

Does England not believe to be it can be a good neighbour to scotland and will not cooperate with Scotland even if its in the interest of both nations. Im sure the other member nations of New South Britain will not adopt any self righteous position. Remember Scotland is the oldest nation in Europe and we will assist our younger friends when possible. So we allow New South Britain to use Our sterling and hope you join us in the removal of trident weapons of mass destruction and use that money to tackle poverty on your streets. We will.

picardshair · 3 December 2013 at 3:18PM

paulc333 wrote: »

and who took us into this "illegal" war, Tony Blair, A SCOTSMAN!!!

Either you believe that one person makes decisions for the whole country which makes the country a dictatorship or your point has no relevance

paulc333 wrote: »

Who was either chancellor or prime minister during the worst part of the financial mis-management? Gordon Brown, hang on he is a SCOTSMAN.

Both could have been in power in Scotland if Scotland had already been Independent at that point!!

Mr Brown has hardly been in the country at all this year, never mind tend to his own constituents even though he is a serving MP. One wonders if he would be even eligible to vote in the referendum.

And the SNP have 6 MSPs born in England, this referendum has more to do with financial control than actual nationality.

gm_xone · 3 December 2013 at 3:30PM

wiogs wrote: »

How would, in an independent Scotland, my vote carry more weight?

In Scotland, an Additional Members [voting] System is used which is designed to produce approximate proportional representation at Holyrood for each region. So, your vote will actually count.

Unlike, as is the case, for Westminster elections, where...
The majority – 53% – of votes cast by the British electorate at the 2010 UK general election were "binned", because they were cast for candidates who didn't win, and are therefore simply worthless in the First Past The Post electoral system.
These are figures for votes "wasted" on each party, ie cast for losing candidates and therefore discarded as worthless by the FPTP system:

Liberal Democrats – 5,596,089 (approximately 82% of all Lib Dem votes)
Labour – 3,600,427 (42%)
Conservative – 3,404,308 (34%)
UKIP – 917,832 (100%)
BNP – 563,743 (100%)
SNP – 403,024 (82%)
Green – 269,378 (94%)
PC – 129,651 (78%)
Sinn Fein – 69,652 (41%)
SDLP – 59,374 (54%)
DUP – 48,981 (29%)
Alliance – 29,923 (70%)
Others – 596,474 (100%)

Total – 15,689,216 (52.9% of total votes cast: 29,653,638)

picardshair · 3 December 2013 at 3:33PM

paulc333 wrote: »

Truly Delusional,

Asked my friends and people at work and in a club i go to, a decent sample, and guess what the percentages pretty much match the "made-up" polls you talk about.

Thats not a valid poll. Many of the polling companies are not politically neutral, YouGov being the obvious one with links to the Conservatives. And these companies are biased due to their polling methods and weighting of results which biases towards UK election results. Panelbase doesnt have any strong links to political parties, is based in England and they weighted their recent polls based on Scottish election patterns rather than UK ones. Like it or not, it is a more valid poll.

paulc333 wrote: »

All I ever hear from the yessers is talk of "scaremongering" but no real answers!

Dont you dear say "Scots ae sick of Westminister" like you represent my views.

Some Scots feel that way true, but don't put us all in the same boat!

And yes I am Scottish and have a vote, it will be a resounding NO

There are plenty answers, both on the Yes Scotland website and in the white paper along with a number of other sites. If you dont know the answers please post your questions here and I am sure someone will answer it.

Ayayermaw · 3 December 2013 at 3:38PM

gm_xone wrote: »

Firstly, it's not Alex Salmond's White Paper. It's a Scottish Govt. document issued by a government democratically elected by the people of Scotland.
Secondly, you say "it's full of wind and wishes but no actual game plan". Actually, Scotland's Future lays out the "game plan" in great detail.
What we've heard nothing of from the No side, is any positive case whatsoever, or what will happen in the event of a No vote. The Barnett formula, for one thing, is certain to be abolished, though.

You're splitting hairs here but that's what it's come down to. It's as much Salmonds white paper as UK government decisions are Cameron's. It's common to refer to the head of the party in terms of ownership.

As for the "game plan" I stand by that. They make lots of claims but offer no explanation on how they're going to do it (I've read it all). This white paper needs to be more than a list of claims. It needs to be backed up with evidence and models but it doesn't. If this were an election campaign it would be fine and a pretty good attempt but it's not - we need facts.

One of the biggest problems of this white paper is that it is heavily dependent on EU membership. The paper guarantees our membership but this was a ridiculously stupid promise to make. We're NOT guaranteed membership. We stand a good chance of becoming members but it wont be on the same terms as we have now as UK. Nevertheless there is absolutely no contingency plan for non EU membership in that document. We're supposed to stupidly take it as a given.

I'm passionately against EU membership but I don't want us to be dumped out of the EU, unplanned - That would be catastrophic.

Either this white paper contains lies or the democratically elected (I presume that gives it more weight over the democratically elected uk gov) Scottish government is staffed by people in no fit state to run a country.

Don't get me wrong. I hate the UK government with a passion. I hate that they are chipping away at the UK and we're all blindly letting them do it - we're like cattle in that sense - but I'm dammed if I'll chop my nose off to spite my face.

You say you haven't heard a positive from the NO camp. That may be true but the positives you're hearing from the YES camp are nothing more than sugar coating. It's crap to be in the UK under the UK government at the moment but it would be worse to follow that yellow brick road

picardshair · 3 December 2013 at 3:46PM

gm_xone wrote: »

So this...
"Note: The 'I live in Scotland' vote started rising rapidly late Monday evening. Most of the additional votes were 'yes' (beforehand, 'No' had been winning). Our suspicion is there's been an email/social media campaign to get 'yes' votes - so please take this result with a pinch of salt."
...is patronising.

I agree, also how do they know there hasnt been an email/social media campaign on the no side which has been far less effective? The poll has been directly retweeted over 80 times, probably mentioned in an email campaign and on facebook by numerous people so it has been spread fairly wide.

Their poll system limits to IPs, that means a person can only make a very few number of votes. It certainly isnt a small number of people making hundreds of votes, most votes are most likely by real individuals.