Will RoUK really give up some of its financial freedom to the independant Scots?

Generali

adouglasmhor wrote: »

Lots of things, you really are unclear on the concept aren't you. If Scotland ceases to be part of the UK, it's not subject to the UK any more.

Very true: programs made and broadcast by the BBC would remain the IP of the BBC. Any attempt to systematically steal that could result in Scottish IP not being recognized either.

Scotland isn't China. She can't stick 2 fingers up to the world on these or indeed any matters.

vivatifosi

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Indeed, I use freesat myself.

However, that content is provided in that way, at will, by Sky. It's not tapping into the other channels which are not provided on that platform.

It seems to me that the argument is "you can't stop us". Not a very good argument going forward. As I say, I wouldn't be too impressed if we all had to pay more (due to the loss of licence fee from Scotland) and Scotland simply turns around and says "well we want it and you can't stop us from viewing it".

Well, Scotland is 8.4% of the population of the UK or thereabouts. So the BBC will still have over 90% of its budget to spend. It has already shown that it can redirect budgets when it needs to, which it did to cover the Olympics.

The BBC's spend is outlined in its annual report, here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/annualreport/2013/executive/finances/expenditure.html

So let's assume that Scotland doesn't want to pay a licence fee. Then the BBC could respond by cutting its share of BBC Alba (£7.8m) and closing BBC Radio Scotland (£32.7m), plus any more localised content that cannot be identified from the figures. It can also sell off offices and retain smaller premises and lay off a percentage of local staff. If Scotland doesn't pay for the BBC - its choice - then it won't stay the same as it is now. And if the Scots value these services, they will find a way to pay for and retain them, even if that's not by licence fee.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Forgetting the BBC for a minute, as that;s not the real issue, the fundamental "you cant stop us" argument is what grates. What else will that apply to going forward?

People can and do say what they like when they are electioneering. It doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that it will happen, even if said with the best of intentions.

Loughton_Monkey

Graham_Devon wrote: »

No, I am not unclear on the subject..

Are you quite sure?

adouglasmhor

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I'm not even sure why you appear to assume the rest of the UK should just stand back and take it because you say so but on the other hand wanting the UK to handhold and negotiate on your behalf.

I think you have me confused with someone you have made up in your head.

I never said I wanted any of these things, I explained how the law and some of the physical constraints on the subject works and Generali explained what could be done about it.
You seem to be unable to get your head round the idea of a split, it means Westminster is not Scotlands government any more, so they can't pass laws on Scotland etc. While I hope that does not happen - if it does Scotlands laws and international laws will run in Scotland.

IveSeenTheLight

antrobus wrote: »

Nope. I'm simply pointing out that (for example) the proposal that an independent Scotland enter into a monetary union with the UK is precisely that; a proposal that would be subject to negotiation. So for one party to issue a document that says Scotland will do so is rather silly, because it might not happen.

Yes, it's a proposal based on a Fiscal Commission Report which identified it would be in the interest of both Scotland and the Rest Of The UK.

Four currency options were examined by the Fiscal Commission
– the continued use of Sterling (pegged and flexible), the
creation of a Scottish currency and membership of the Euro.
They concluded that retaining Sterling as part of a formal
monetary union with rest of the UK will be the best option. The
Fiscal Commission proposed a practical and workable model,
including governance and institutional arrangements that would
create a successful and robust framework.
The Commission’s analysis shows that it will not only be
in Scotland’s interests to retain Sterling but that – post
independence – this will also benefit the rest of the UK.

antrobus wrote: »

I beg to differ. I believe you to very confused. The Scottish referendum is purely a Scottish question that doesn't involve the rest of the UK. The Barsetshire County Council might decide to hold a referendum to ascertain the public's views on the level of council tax it should charge, fulfilling the manifesto pledge of the recently elected Barsetshire People's Party. The UK Westminster government might well be interested in ensuring that the referendum was fairly conducted, but the fact that a referendum was taking place would not impose any obligations on said Westminster government.

I can assure you I am not confused at all.
I realise that the people in Scotland will be voting on this referendum.

Regards to your point above, is it you position that this debate should only be conducted by MSP's only?

Graham_Devon

adouglasmhor wrote: »

I think you have me confused with someone you have made up in your head.

I never said I wanted any of these things, I explained how the law and some of the physical constraints on the subject works and Generali explained what could be done about it.
You seem to be unable to get your head round the idea of a split, it means Westminster is not Scotlands government any more, so they can't pass laws on Scotland etc. While I hope that does not happen - if it does Scotlands laws and international laws will run in Scotland.

And you appear to have me confused with someone you have just made up in your head.

I certainly don't want this to go this way, but you appear to be attacking rather than discussing.

Though that does appear to be the general theme of all independence debates, as I stated on the very first page! I really don't want this whole independence thing to turn into a them against us scenario. But even the debate does that.

IveSeenTheLight

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon asked the Coalition’s Scottish Secretary, Alistair Carmichael, four questions about what will happen to Scotland if we vote No.

Did he provide clarity?

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

How many more Scottish children would be pushed into poverty by UK Government policies by 2020 if Scotland remained in the UK?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“We’re having to make some very difficult decisions” – with consequences that the Lib-Dem Coalition minister sees as a ‘price worth paying’ for staying in the UK

Expert Answer:

The independent Child Poverty Action Group said: “as a result of current UK government policies there will be massive rises in child poverty. In Scotland alone between 50,000 to 100,000 will be living in poverty by 2020”.

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

Exactly what powers have all the No parties agreed and will guarantee that Scotland would get if we vote No?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“There only will be that discussion when Scotland decides to remain part of the United Kingdom”

Real Answer:

The No parties have given no guarantee of any further powers for Scotland if we vote No, despite the wishes of people in Scotland to have full welfare and tax powers

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:
Since the Coalition government took office, Scotland’s budget has been cut by £2.5 bn in real terms. What’s going to happen to Scotland’s budget if Scotland votes No?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“this has the whiff of desperation about it… she is reporting on something that is coming from a group of backbenchers”, the all-party taxation committee.

Real Answer:
The Chair of the Holtham Commission (which the No parties support) said that if we vote No the Barnett formula should be scrapped and Scotland’s budget cut by £4bn on top of the £2.5bn already cut so far.

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

If Scotland doesn’t vote Tory, do we have a guarantee that the Liberals won’t impose another Tory government on Scotland?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“What’s your problem with democracy here? … Across the whole of the UK the votes are counted…”

Real Answer:

“Democracy says that when we vote against the Tories we shouldn’t have a Tory Government” – only a Yes vote gives Scotland the government we vote for.

angrypirate

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon asked the Coalition’s Scottish Secretary, Alistair Carmichael, four questions about what will happen to Scotland if we vote No.

Did he provide clarity?

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

How many more Scottish children would be pushed into poverty by UK Government policies by 2020 if Scotland remained in the UK?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“We’re having to make some very difficult decisions” – with consequences that the Lib-Dem Coalition minister sees as a ‘price worth paying’ for staying in the UK

Expert Answer:

The independent Child Poverty Action Group said: “as a result of current UK government policies there will be massive rises in child poverty. In Scotland alone between 50,000 to 100,000 will be living in poverty by 2020”.

I dont see how they can forecast this when they cant even forecast immigration in a months time

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

Exactly what powers have all the No parties agreed and will guarantee that Scotland would get if we vote No?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“There only will be that discussion when Scotland decides to remain part of the United Kingdom”

Real Answer:

The No parties have given no guarantee of any further powers for Scotland if we vote No, despite the wishes of people in Scotland to have full welfare and tax powers

I dont see what devolution of powers has to do with the referendum. This is more of a red herring.

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:
Since the Coalition government took office, Scotland’s budget has been cut by £2.5 bn in real terms. What’s going to happen to Scotland’s budget if Scotland votes No?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“this has the whiff of desperation about it… she is reporting on something that is coming from a group of backbenchers”, the all-party taxation committee.

Real Answer:
The Chair of the Holtham Commission (which the No parties support) said that if we vote No the Barnett formula should be scrapped and Scotland’s budget cut by £4bn on top of the £2.5bn already cut so far.

Barnett formula is massively out of date and spending per head in Soctland massively outweighs spending per head in the rest of the UK. Right now the entire of the UK including Scotland has a massive national debt problem and everywhere is having to stomach cuts. There is no reason why should Scotland be immune to this too

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

If Scotland doesn’t vote Tory, do we have a guarantee that the Liberals won’t impose another Tory government on Scotland?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“What’s your problem with democracy here? … Across the whole of the UK the votes are counted…”

Real Answer:

“Democracy says that when we vote against the Tories we shouldn’t have a Tory Government” – only a Yes vote gives Scotland the government we vote for.

Real answer: Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and gets the government voted in by the UK. You could argue that us Welsh and English have to put up with their MPs in our parliament especially when they have a parliament of their own. Actually, I think the West Lothian question here is far more relevant but completely ignored by the Scottish. In fact, my Scottish colleague wasnt even aware of the West Lothian question issue.

Sturgeon is simply using distraction techniques to try and distract people away from the massive holes in the white paper. I mean, quite simply, why on earth would the BoE even want to be the lender of last resort to a country that it has no economic or political ties, for which it would get no benefit yet all the risk?

MFW_ASAP

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon asked the Coalition’s Scottish Secretary, Alistair Carmichael, four questions about what will happen to Scotland if we vote No.

Did he provide clarity?

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

How many more Scottish children would be pushed into poverty by UK Government policies by 2020 if Scotland remained in the UK?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“We’re having to make some very difficult decisions” – with consequences that the Lib-Dem Coalition minister sees as a ‘price worth paying’ for staying in the UK

Expert Answer:

The independent Child Poverty Action Group said: “as a result of current UK government policies there will be massive rises in child poverty. In Scotland alone between 50,000 to 100,000 will be living in poverty by 2020”.

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

Exactly what powers have all the No parties agreed and will guarantee that Scotland would get if we vote No?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“There only will be that discussion when Scotland decides to remain part of the United Kingdom”

Real Answer:

The No parties have given no guarantee of any further powers for Scotland if we vote No, despite the wishes of people in Scotland to have full welfare and tax powers

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:
Since the Coalition government took office, Scotland’s budget has been cut by £2.5 bn in real terms. What’s going to happen to Scotland’s budget if Scotland votes No?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“this has the whiff of desperation about it… she is reporting on something that is coming from a group of backbenchers”, the all-party taxation committee.

Real Answer:
The Chair of the Holtham Commission (which the No parties support) said that if we vote No the Barnett formula should be scrapped and Scotland’s budget cut by £4bn on top of the £2.5bn already cut so far.

---

Nicola Sturgeon’s Question:

If Scotland doesn’t vote Tory, do we have a guarantee that the Liberals won’t impose another Tory government on Scotland?

Alistair Carmichael’s Response:

“What’s your problem with democracy here? … Across the whole of the UK the votes are counted…”

Real Answer:

“Democracy says that when we vote against the Tories we shouldn’t have a Tory Government” – only a Yes vote gives Scotland the government we vote for.

This is the debate I watched. I felt that Carmichael was a poor choice for this sort of a debate because he's a parliamentarian and they needed a 'street fighter' who is prepared to use the same tactics as Sturgeon - i.e. refusing to answer questions, answering questions with another question and simply talking over the opponent and not allowing him to speak.

The child poverty question was nonsense, are the SNP really saying that they will end child poverty in Scotland when they form a government? That would be an interesting trick.

With the 'Extra powers', the 'no vote' isn't a vote for DEVO Max, it's a vote to remain with the status quo. So what you get is Business as Usual if you stay with the UK (i.e. bad or good, you know what you're getting because you already have it).

As to the imposition of a Tory government, what happens if all of the highlands and islands (Hebrides, etc) vote 'No' and the populous city's of Glasgow and Edinburgh vote "yes", ending the Union? The highlands and islands didn't vote for it but are having it imposed on them. The main difference is that this is for life, not a single parliament.

IveSeenTheLight

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

T
As to the imposition of a Tory government, what happens if all of the highlands and islands (Hebrides, etc) vote 'No' and the populous city's of Glasgow and Edinburgh vote "yes", ending the Union? The highlands and islands didn't vote for it but are having it imposed on them. The main difference is that this is for life, not a single parliament.

The highlands population is 232,910
the Outer Hebrides population is 26,080

As a percentage of the electorate, their area's impact is

Highlands 0.35% for the UK, 4.23% for Scotland
Outer Hebrides 0.04% for the UK, and 0.47%

Effectively, independance would increase the weighting of their vote by 11.8 times than staying within the UK