UKPCS PCN out of marked bay

laststraw

UKPCS Ltd being out of marked bay
Sorry it is a big post but from reading these and other forums for about 3 days, there are usual questions asked of posters so here it all is in one go.

Lets say If a vehicle was parked at a leisure park in the Midlands and a PCN could of been put on a windowscreen and it was after 9pm in November and so would be dark, there are unlit signs that state you are not allowed to park out of a bay or even at an angle in one. They are all over the site and some may catch some light from a nearby building.

But the vehicle was not parked out of a bay, and even if it was-- would the PPC have to provide photographic proof of the alleged incident, the carpark signs state that they may take photos.
If any window notice would of said "UKCPS adheres to the BPA code of practice and are members of the approved operator scheme"
If a notice says If no payment or appeal is received within 28 days the keeper details will be requested from dvla then talks about failure to pay may result in court action against the driver or keeper. Then -- under the provisions of schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms Act 2012 "the creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle" have they said all they need to.
SO
As from what has been read the advice is do nothing until a NTK is received.
Will any photos of proof be sent with a NTK, If no photos were taken at the time to prove the alleged out of marked bay incident. Do they have to provide this proof.
What if -on the ticket the date where it is printed "date" underneath the attendant has written without any dividing lines - so as today's date would be like this 26 1113 and infact it carrys on and mearges with the time so with the time as it is now it looks like this 26 111318 42
What if under the reasons for issue on a notice, it says observed parking (printed) there are 6 boxes that above say "tick". But what if carpark attendant has used an X in the out of a marked bay box instaed of a tick.
It is a free carpark- not time limited.
So far is the the keepers aproach the right thing.
Why is the advice to wait until the NTK
So assuming
The notice does not say anyone has broken any contract other than the tick box out of marked bay which has an X in it.
There is no mention on the ticket of entering a contract although the sign might do, the ticket does say that its issue is made under contract law
Can anyone spot anything that can used in the keepers 1st appeal to the PPC upon receiving the NTK
Thank you

ezerscrooge

Could the company not have the charge cancelled? They must know who the landowner is (they'll most likely be paying them rent).

Failing that put in a basic appeal (templates in the stickys) about being parked correctly, no authority to levy charges, and excessive charge that does not represent a genuine loss.

Have a good read through the sticky's - search for Fistral in the 'search forums' as that was a successful case relating to poor lighting levels.

Get your POPLA code, then do a good POPLA appeal using the Fistral Beach bits AND specific points mentioned in this forum (again, some excellent templates that do work). Don't bother with the mitigating circumstancs bit - they'll ignore it.

Coupon-mad

The advice to wait for the NTK is explained fully in the sticky thread 'newbies, have you got a private parking ticket? read this now!'

And the DRIVER will not be appealing the NTK, the KEEPER will. BIG DIFFERENCE, SO THE DETAILS ARE UNIMPORTANT AND THE 'TICKET' WILL NOT BE MENTIONED.

Stroma

You don't say if this is a company/leased/hired vehicle, can you confirm if it is or not?

Thanks

laststraw

Thank you all so far for your help
Stroma-- it is a private vehicle
Coupon-mad --the sticky will be re-read.

And the DRIVER will not be appealing the NTK, the KEEPER will. BIG DIFFERENCE, SO THE DETAILS ARE UNIMPORTANT AND THE 'TICKET' WILL NOT BE MENTIONED.

Good spot there and a welcome reminder ---got it
The poor lighting will also be looked into, are any of the other points of any use.
Also
If the carpark was very full and somone did park out of a bay due to lack of spaces and nothing was blocked what losses has anyone made - in fact they have gained as otherwise the occupants would not have stayed due to not finding a space,

Coupon-mad

Yep you can talk about the lighting etc. as long as the appeal refers to 'the driver' in the third person; I would not mention the hedge as that shows knowledge of exactly where the car was... And I still wouldn't mention the windscreen ticket either.

Best to print out an appeal like this (and you HAVE to post it to UKCPS by the way, but only in response to the NTK):


Dear Sir/Madam,
'I am the registered keeper and I have received your 'Notice to Keeper letter' and this is my appeal.

I see that the incident date and time is when it was dark so I contest the charge on the basis that your signage cannot have been lit or clear, was not seen by the driver and no contract was formed. In addition, your charge is clearly not a genuine pre-estimate of any loss, as it is a free car park and in any case, UKCPS do not own the car park so you have no legal standing to form contracts with drivers. Such an allegation is wholly without merit and would be unenforceable by yourselves as a mere agent, if attempting a court claim as an alleged creditor. Your Notice to Keeper letter is also flawed in wording as it does not reflect the requirements of paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012; this will all be pointed out at POPLA stage and I do not need to elaborate about your Notice now.

The driver will not be identified in this appeals process and I would point out that POPLA's latest newsletter has reminded the BPA membership that AOS members must allow registered keepers to appeal to POPLA and provide a clear verification code with the first rejection letter. Or you may cancel this now.


yours,

REGISTERED KEEPER'S NAME '

laststraw

Thanks for that Coupon -mad
I just need to add something to the last post questions which is if a window PCN was to be complained about to the owners of a retail park and registration and ticket number were divulged to them they would need to pass it it on to the PPC, and say the landowners were not that bothered, then haven't you put your hand up and said yep a ticket was on a vehercle.
Is the advice that if you are going to try and get the landowners to get it cancelled then are you still to wait for the NTK or not.

And also this

and the driver was an employee of an on-site outlet who had more reason to be there than UKCPS who do not own the car park and have no legal standing.

and then this

The driver will not be identified in this appeals process

But if it was said that the driver was an enployee would that then need proof which is then identiying the driver.

Coupon-mad

if a window PCN was to be complained about to the owners of a retail park and registration and ticket number were divulged to them they would need to pass it it on to the PPC, and say the landowners were not that bothered, then haven't you put your hand up and said yep a ticket was on a vehicle.

Well the keeper isn't going to deny a ticket - so far the keeper knows nowt about it.

You should complain to the retailer NOW, because some PPC agreements allow them (retailers) to cancel fake PCNs within 7 or 10 days of issue, pretty much on demand.

If you complain to the landowner/retailer just give an email address and first name (different from the keeper's first name). Or John Smith, or summat you can remember. If the retailer asks for more details then just show them the ticket and say 'you obviously haven't Googled UKCPS or you would know why a person would not give more details at this stage. This is the ticket, this is why it's unfair, here's a receipt to show the driver was shopping there - please can you cancel it, as I understand you can? To save the registered keeper getting involved to appeal it when they hear about it in the new Year which seems a long time to wait under the circumstances, when the driver was shopping'.

It is easiest to start in person at the CS desk, dressed smartly and meaning business. Ask for the Store Manager only and have the ticket and any receipt to hand (no name needed on your part, I suspect). Only move the complaint on to a retail park owner complaint if the Store Manager can't sort it.

laststraw

Thank you for your reply, I am very sorry but - partly because I am trying not to give away info that they can use I think you have the wrong end of the sitck--- or rather that tiz I that have given you the wrong end or sent you barking up the wrong tree so to speak, all in my efforts to not give anything away.
Could I ask your permission to send you a pm and I can then be 100% clear for you to then perhaps help better.
Once again --- very sorry

Coupon-mad

Yep but my pm box is often full...and I don't deal with much by pm as I have no time, so can't look at it immediately.