Zero hours contracts - it's all about the oppressed workers...not

Graham_Devon

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

As an aside, did anyone see last night's instalment of the BBC's Nanny State, whinging, waste-of-time, political broadcast called "Panorama"?

I had physically to cringe at the obvious "set up" that Panorama created. Their aim was to 'get at' Amazon and prove that their South Wales 'picking wharehouse' was a complete sweatshop. Frankly I'm surprised that Amazon don't have electronic computerised 'picking'. Even Italian Parmesan Cheese factories have that.

The 'job' seemed to consist of wheeling a trolley through large aisles of products - guided by a hand-held devise - picking each item in turn off the shelves, zapping the barcode, and moving on to the next. The hand-held acted, it seems, not just as a 'satnav' telling then exactly when to turn and how far to go, but also as a timekeeper - telling them they should be picking the next item in 30 seconds - and so on. Any basically literate person could do the job.

The overall 'management' was delivered by humans, but almost totally reliant on the 'figures'. Including attendance. There were standards. Half a point lost for being late.... another point for being only 80% efficient for your picking.....

Now it seems to me that the 2,500 or so employees generally coped with this well, and have done for a while. Local focus is also upon who will get up to 15,000 (!) temporary jobs over the Xmas rush, and the degree to which any of these might retain permanent positions. It struck me as a well managed [albeit demanding] and fair firm, although the job being 'simple' they simply wanted a modicum of efficiency.

The program found a "fit young graduate" who we saw jogging across the rugged landscape and they sent him under cover to film his job secretly. The program was rather 'short' on getting shots of other employees whinging, but rather 'long' on the graduate finding things to whinge about. Even the blisters [which I am convinced he got filming the opening jogging shots] were probably false and his arrival 2 minutes late was clearly deliberate to highlight the loss of half a point [3 and you're out] and to film the straighforward and pleasant supervisor reminding him of the rules.

Anyway, Mr fit Graduate wasn't so fit after all (because of the whinging probably) and deliberately failed his productivity standard, blaming the blisters. They put him on 'lighter' duties in a different section with far less walking. As this was new, he didn't know what to expect. His supervisor gave him a "reading" after an hour or two showing him very comfortably over target. No surprises, therefore, our hero slowed down so that he could be well below target after 6 hours - still blaming the blisters - and then flouted the rules by going home a couple of hours early.

In summary, we have a local employer of 2,500 people doing highly routine jobs that require no creativity. Just a modicum of literacy and a lot of walking [postman springs to mind]. Pay levels were not criticised as far as I recall. Standards of productivity were well communicated, with strict [but by no means inhumane] consistent rules within which you would get no hassle. Nothing wrong with it at all.....

If all the employees were like the BBC lad, then my message to Amazon is: "Get computerised pickers in there now!" And sack the lot of 'em"

Yes, I saw the programme, and probably not surprisingly, my take was different to yours.

You mention the half a point for being late. What you don't mention is that he got half a point for being two, yes TWO, minutes late. So while you are being factual, you are not quantifying what late means to amazon. I accept points for being late....but anything over 1 minute late and you get half a point. That's just a bit ridiculous.

What you also don't mention is how many points they can rack up before being dismissed. That....would be 3.

So 3 points leads to dismissal. Two minutes late leads to half a point. Being physically sick while picking leads to another half a point. Not much leeway in it.

The blisters were certainly NOT from running. He was wearing proper running gear, but shoes in the amazon warehouse, though we had no idea if they were required to wear shoes or not.

You don't mention the facts such as the guy failing to meet his targets (that is one item picked every 30 seconds) even when there is no lighting in the warehouse. In most situations you'd expect the employer to give you some leeway considering you cannot see the shelves....but not amazon.

You missed the point that Amazon hired "independent advisors" to see just how far they could go legally, and indeed, went as far as hey possibly could in terms of working legislation. Indeed, theres some confusion over whether they are legal or not.

I note you haven't picked up on the fact that throughout the programme Amazon were keen to state how many of their permanent staff had undergone dismissal etc.... Which is great, but the majority of the picking staff are not permanent. The permanent staff were more likely to be doing other jobs so wouldn't have been under the same terms....hence why Amazon used permanent staff. Amazon told Panorama they would not release the figures for all staff. You suggest 2,500 staff cope well with this.....well it's no surprise really, as those managers you spoke of will make up some of those 2,500 permanent staff and therefore don't have to cope with it. What's important here is to compare apples with apples.

Now sure, there will be some staff just not suited to that kind of work. But Amazon were working on the extremes in every circumstance.

10 hour shift....11 miles to walk....1,110 items to pick, scan and put on your trolley..... and you appear to have painted the picture that it's just whingers who aren't fit for work.

Loughton_Monkey

Graham_Devon wrote: »

... What you don't mention is that he got half a point for being two, yes TWO, minutes late. So while you are being factual, you are not quantifying what late means to amazon....

Graham_Devon wrote: »

....What you also don't mention is how many points they can rack up before being dismissed. That....would be 3..

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

..... and his arrival 2 minutes late was clearly deliberate to highlight the loss of half a point [3 and you're out] .....

No Graham. I'm extremely sorry. I'll write it in crayon next time, then you might be able to read it.....

michaels

If you are late 6 times you have your employment terminated - why is that unreasonable?

It is a physical job - like lots of other physical jobs. Other companies would not employ firemen or life guards or policemen or waitresses or check out operators who were not capable of doing the job so why should Amazon?

Edit: strangely few comments denouncing zero hours contracts which I am sure have been demonised in the past....

Generali

Walking 11 miles in 10 hours doesn't sound too demanding.

Interesting that the people that have been slagging off these sorts of contracts have lost their tongues.

ukcarper

michaels wrote: »

If you are late 6 times you have your employment terminated - why is that unreasonable?

It is a physical job - like lots of other physical jobs. Other companies would not employ firemen or life guards or policemen or waitresses or check out operators who were not capable of doing the job so why should Amazon?

Edit: strangely few comments denouncing zero hours contracts which I am sure have been demonised in the past....

Do zero hours contracts and part time contracts help the economy a large number are structure so no tax and NI is paid.

I can see the benefit to employer in all cases and to the employee if it fits in with their lifestyle but for the just under 50% who need more hours it is far from ideal.

Loughton_Monkey

ukcarper wrote: »

Do zero hours contracts and part time contracts help the economy a large number are structure so no tax and NI is paid.

I can see the benefit to employer in all cases and to the employee if it fits in with their lifestyle but for the just under 50% who need more hours it is far from ideal.

Well the majority of zero hours seem to be 'happy'.

But I get very sceptical about this part time business. I am no benefits expert at all. But I am convinced the rot set in when Labour (?) introduced some rule that working tax credits (?) can continue provided you only work 16 hours? I think that number was increased.

I'd welcome anyone who knows the truth to explain. But word is that an awful lot of part timers are there by choice. The marginal benefit of working another hour - or even full time would make it hardly worth it.

Employers, faced with a 'surplus' of applicants for relatively low paid jobs, presumably welcome two part timers instead of 1 full timer to save on NI?

So it all smells to me, anyway, and I admit I don't know the current situation or reality on this subject. Anyone else know?

Perelandra

I'm not a supporter of Amazon- haven't bought anything through them in years- but having seen the programme I don't see that the conditions there are particularly worse than unskilled jobs in any factory. It was very reminiscent of my summer jobs at Ginsters and Staples.

Jobs like this do get better in time- the 5 or 6 weeks that the "spy" worked there isn't long enough to get used to the pace.

However, I wouldn't like to work there myself. Working conditions do need to be good enough to make any work an attractive proposition relative to living on benefits, and I don't think Amazon is doing that.

I'll continue my self-imposed boycott of Amazon.

ash28

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Yes, I saw the programme, and probably not surprisingly, my take was different to yours.

You mention the half a point for being late. What you don't mention is that he got half a point for being two, yes TWO, minutes late. So while you are being factual, you are not quantifying what late means to amazon. I accept points for being late....but anything over 1 minute late and you get half a point. That's just a bit ridiculous.

.

I didn't see the programme - but being penalised for being late was normal in the place I spent most of my working life.....

Where I worked (one of the best employers in the country and one of the biggest private companies in the world) being late hit you in the pocket. Everyone from the man at the top to the person who swept the floor had to clock in.....at the latest by 08:30 and if that clock ticked over a second past 08:30 then you lost 10% of a days pay.

There were no excuses.....traffic on the M4 - tough......snow - tough......it was your responsibility to get yourself to work on time - and be at your place of work (workstation or desk) ready to start work at 08:30. Not at 08:35 or 08:40.......and late was late regardless of how late...

Attendance was important, good timekeeping was part of your attendance and was part of the appraisal process. A permanent employee might not get a payrise if they were late too often or off sick too often (not the length of time sick but the number of times) and eventually get disciplined and a temp would probably get the sack.

chucky

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Yes, I saw the programme, and probably not surprisingly, my take was different to yours.

I'm not sure how anyone can defend someone turning up 6 times late to work as justifiable.

In this economic environment work is very scarce. Turning up late is just asking for trouble and not surprisingly was a problem.

Loughton_Monkey

chucky wrote: »

I'm not sure how anyone can defend someone turning up 6 times late to work as justifiable.

In this economic environment work is very scarce. Turning up late is just asking for trouble and not surprisingly was a problem.

I guess if you come from a background in which any form of work is considered exploitation, then being expected to work and turn up on time most days is sheer slavery.