Language or Logic?

TruckerT

There was a guy on the radio today who said that there are no rules of grammar. He said that nobody would ever say that 'I and he' went to the pictures. He failed to say that there are lots of us who would never say that 'me and him' went to the pictures.

I wish his opponent had made the point that grammar and the opposable thumb are the bedrocks of 'civilisation'.

Language and logic are inseparable. Just read some of the stupidities on twitter etc, and ask yourself how to respond.

The guy on the radio seemed to suggest that if we all became accustomed to ending our sentences with 'innit', then that would become an entirely acceptable use (mis-use?) of language.

You will probably be asking yourselves whether this post has any relevance to House Prices and the Economy. The answer is 'yes'.

The people who rule our lives speak a common language, and it doesn't usually include the word 'innit'.

Know what I mean??

TruckerT

System

TruckerT wrote: »

. He said that nobody would ever say that 'I and he' went to the pictures.

I'd say "He and I" or possibly "We".

societys_child

I probably wouldn't bother telling anybody, then I'd have no problem innit

Voyager2002

I heard that interview, and I think you miss the point.

All languages have grammar, and native speakers of the language unconsciously follow the rules. The point is that the grammatical rules of the forms of English spoken by many groups in our society are different from those taught at school, which reflect the way the elite speak. The question is, should members of other groups in society have to learn to speak this different version of English, or should the ways they speak naturally be recognised as correct but different? And when large numbers of people switch to speaking in ways that follow rules different from the rules of standard English, should we say that they are all wrong, or that the language has changed?

The internet (and electronic communication) add a whole new dimension to this: many people write things that are close to being gibberish in any form of English, even the non-standard form that they speak. The same people would probably say things that make a bit more sense.

Loughton_Monkey

When you see people with matted dirty hair, filthy fingernails, who have a odour about them, you are almost certain to assume that person to be sloppy and without much self-respect. Most of the time you will be right.

When you see people in restaurants digging into food with their hands instead of a knife and fork, talking with their mouths full, spitting fragments of half-chewed food all over the place, you assume that person to have no manners. Most of the time you will be right.

When you hear people saying "I don't done history so I would of went to the pub instead of the museum. Innit?" or see them write with no capitals, punctuation, and frequent spelling mistakes, you will assume that person is uneducated. Most of the time you will be right.

That's logical.

TruckerT

Voyager2002 wrote: »

I heard that interview, and I think you miss the point.

All languages have grammar, and native speakers of the language unconsciously follow the rules. The point is that the grammatical rules of the forms of English spoken by many groups in our society are different from those taught at school, which reflect the way the elite speak. The question is, should members of other groups in society have to learn to speak this different version of English, or should the ways they speak naturally be recognised as correct but different? And when large numbers of people switch to speaking in ways that follow rules different from the rules of standard English, should we say that they are all wrong, or that the language has changed?

The internet (and electronic communication) add a whole new dimension to this: many people write things that are close to being gibberish in any form of English, even the non-standard form that they speak. The same people would probably say things that make a bit more sense.

If we cannot understand the language of our leaders, then how can we understand their ideas? (and vice versa).

It has long been established that people use words in writing which they would never use in speech. Just read a few job applications.

But I for one have only become exposed to large amounts of written gibberish since I started using the internet. And yet, the internet continues to strengthen its vice-like grip on the world.

Please don't be boringly predictable, and compare my own internet ramblings to the gibberish of others lol.

TruckerT

Blackpool_Saver

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

When you hear people saying "I don't done history so I would of went to the pub instead of the museum. Innit?" or see them write with no capitals, punctuation, and frequent spelling mistakes, you will assume that person is uneducated. Most of the time you will be right.

That's logical.

Or they came from a poor environment where the local school was full of other children from poor environments and they were taught by low standard teachers because they were all the school could attract, and even they didn't stay for more than a few weeks

TruckerT

Blackpool_Saver wrote: »

Or they came from a poor environment where the local school was full of other children from poor environments and they were taught by low standard teachers because they were all the school could attract, and even they didn't stay for more than a few weeks

The trouble is that education has become a business. There is a growing debate about the dumbing-down issue, and I like Michael Gove's approach. I just wish he would grasp the nettle and re-introduce the post-war idea of a state-funded grammar school education. It doesn't have to take place in separate premises - it just needs to recognise the wide variety of individual talents. An understanding of grammar is as essential to our well-being as an understanding of plumbing.

TruckerT

CLAPTON

Blackpool_Saver wrote: »

Or they came from a poor environment where the local school was full of other children from poor environments and they were taught by low standard teachers because they were all the school could attract, and even they didn't stay for more than a few weeks

are you a teacher ?

do you know that teachers behave like that ?

can you name some schools?

TruckerT

CLAPTON wrote: »

are you a teacher ?

do you know that teachers behave like that ?

can you name some schools?

are you a parent?

have you never had doubts about your offsprings' teachers?

the government itself seems to have serious angst about the quality of its own education system

TruckerT

boltneck123

..When you hear people saying "I don't done history so I would of went to the pub instead of the museum. Innit?" or see them write with no capitals, punctuation, and frequent spelling mistakes, you will assume that person is uneducated. Most of the time you will be right.

That's logical..

No, that is just stereotyping:P