are Ticket Inspectors breaking the law ?

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

Like in the video below, there is a fine line between detain and assault especially if carried out by somebody whose poorly trained. In fact I'm sure I've read on a foamers forum that management sack staff that get physical with passengers due to the bad corporate image it displays.

hence why the mobile phone camera is the best defence against these bully boys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIk2REU3vdg

I agree some is shocking, but it would appear it's Australian footage...Not that that makes much difference, but I can only ever find CCTV on YouTube from other countries involving such antics...Coincidence? The initial video is local, but it's the first I've seen in a long time.

You are right in that management wouldn't back-up their staff in such cases. You also have to bear in mind that CCTV/phone footage etc, no matter what people say, doesn't often paint a true picture. What we haven't seen in that video and the other one is the goings on just prior to them 'roughing up' (or simply restraining in the first video...) the passengers...Also, with time-lapse etc, you often only get half of the picture. They're not randomly going to jump on someone who has no ticket, are they? Come on, even you have at lease a little savvy about you, I'm sure, Geordie. In the first video the scroat was playing up, because that's what they do. It always looks bad, no matter who is involved, be it Police or rail staff. I notice how the guy taking the first video says towards the end that they're kicking the crap out of him...Really?

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

You also have to bear in mind that CCTV/phone footage etc, no matter what people say, doesn't often paint a true picture.

Well the metro utube looks pretty clear to me, two people using excessive force to detain an offender whilst the others try to block it from been recorded.

Then again according to the Metro staff in the video it's self defence, as apparently the lad was about to jump up and judo kick them all to the head LOL

Stigy wrote: »

'roughing up' (or simply restraining in the first video...) the passengers...

The RRA1889 as we both know states 'detain' it does not give the authority to restrain and in this day and age of ambulance chasing lawyers I would be looking for come serious compo from Nexus after those involved had been prosecuted for assault.

Stigy wrote: »

They're not randomly going to jump on someone who has no ticket, are they? Come on, even you have at lease a little savvy about you, I'm sure, Geordie.

It doesn't matter, yes he was a fare dodger but it's wrong to jump on him, put him in a full restraint position and knee him in the back a couple of times.

Those metro thugs should have not got involved and let him walk, then given the platform CCTV footage to the BTP who with help from the local police would have lifted him later.

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

Well the metro utube looks pretty clear to me, two people using excessive force to detain an offender whilst the others try to block it from been recorded.

Then again according to the Metro staff in the video it's self defence, as apparently the lad was about to jump up and judo kick them all to the head LOL

How you can be so graphic in your detail surprises me, as you weren't there so surely can only see what the rest of us can see. How do you know what occurred prior to the footage? Unless you were there at the time, you don't know. How can you say the force was excessive in the space of a 2-minute video taken on a frankly quite sh*t mobile phone?

Geordie wrote:

The RRA1889 as we both know states 'detain' it does not give the authority to restrain and in this day and age of ambulance chasing lawyers I would be looking for come serious compo from Nexus after those involved had been prosecuted for assault.

Indeed it does say detain, but that often results in restraining. Have a look at the Dictionary definition for detain, and you'll see it's taken in to account. By default, detaining somebody often leads to restraining them.

Geordie wrote:

It doesn't matter, yes he was a fare dodger but it's wrong to jump on him, put him in a full restraint position and knee him in the back a couple of times.

You're missing the point. You don't know what led up to this, do you? If he was complying in the first place, they wouldn't have needed to detain/restrain him. He obviously had no ticket, and refused to cooperate. Realistically, would somebody be jumped on if they were playing ball? No, of course not. I agree that it's wrong to jump on somebody who is willing to cooperate, and I'm sure the guys in the video would agree with you.

Geordie wrote:

Those metro thugs should have not got involved and let him walk, then given the platform CCTV footage to the BTP who with help from the local police would have lifted him later.

Great in theory, but in reality, not so great. How would the BTP have located him unless they recognised him? It would have been a needle in a haystack. The staff had the power to detain for refusing his name and/or address until he could be brought before justice (the Police), and if they were happy to do so, good for them. Their management sticking up for them is dubious, but that was their risk to take. He was obviously refusing name/address otherwise it wouldn't have got this far....Unless of course something far worse occurred and he needed to be kept there regardless.

southerndave

I am not qualified to comment on the law, but I do know from my experience of working for the then BR, that the railways contrary to public belief are PRIVATE property in the eyes of the law. Entry to the stations and trains are by permission only and your ticket is not an all areas pass - it uses are strictly defined. For those without tickets, you are effectively trespassing in the first instance and then there are rafts of bylaws and other regulations that come into effect. Railway staff and the British Transport Police have wide ranging powers, the the BTP also have special powers over railway owned property.

There seems to be an assumption that because the stations and systems are open to the public that they are public spaces, when in reality and the eyes of the law they are not, they are private. The BTP are also effectively a private police force as they are paid for by the railway operating companies. This article clarifies some of their powers and who they fit into the wider policing community:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Transport_Police

Cpu2007

I can agree with you on the fact that the services that rail companies provide is rubbish, constant delays, over crowded trains, not really clean and of course over charged considering the type of service we're getting.
However I think the issue that you have with copy of your ticket on the mobile it's a point in their favour. I know there's a unique number on each ticket and they come with the passenger photographic card as well but you have to understand that it becomes extremely difficult and frustrating to read expiry dates, check if the person in the photo is the same, check if the number is unique, they do all this on the fly while a lot passengers are entering or leaving the train station and 10 people could be using the same copy and get away easily because no one can quickly validate if each ticket is unique. The only way to do this, would be for them to write down copies, cross check and thoroughly check each ticket, which will cause extensive delays. Until they put machines like in london underground, it's only fair to show them the real hard copy.
To people that say that this isn't in the T&C and or if you don't like use an alternative transport system, please grow up, just because their T&C says it, it doesn't mean that the passenger is wrong and has to start using another transport system; they have put these rules there to legally bully their passengers and profit from it.

michaelvintner

If you are caught without a ticket pay the fine. I have been caught and I gave them my correct name and address and stumped up on the spot. Please don't think that I am some preaching do gooder. I have in recent times "Forgotten to purchase a ticket".

Funniest story is my brother many many years ago used to bunk the fair all the time. He said he got caught 3 times paid the penalty and left. His words were "It was a bargain, got a years worth of travel for £60"

Basically you should buy a ticket and you should have it on you if you are caught without one say fair cop guv and pay the penalty.

lgb2100

This was posted today on facebook

"I got a problem with metro ticket inspectors yesterday. I kept my friend tickets and show them when they asked for the tickets. And they said the ticket can not be transferred and asked us to get off from the train. We explained the situation and they just keep talking that my friend could not produced the ticket on the train. Finally They are asking my friend's details to fine and we refused as we concerned that is unfair. It doesn't make any sense to pay the penalty with holding the valid tickets. Then they called the police. The Polices didn't appeared in 45 mins and they detained us in open metro station (St's Peter) for nearly an hour. The polices didn't come and they came and talked to us like they r not giving any penalty fare if the police arrived. They will only give the court summon letter because we refused to give them our details. I asked them "why u didn't tell me about it before u called the police." They said I should know that this is an offence failing to give our information. I don't think most of the international students know about this rule. I just know that is only apply for the case with police. At that point they failed to give us the information about the consequences after they called the police. We got the valid tickets and still need to pay the penalty. Does it make sense or fair? Finally we agree to pay the penalty because my friend doesn't want to go to court and just want to finished with 20 pounds. But We feel like we are unfairly charged and forced to receive the penalty fare with being holding the valid tickets. I really disappointed with these Metro Staffs and their attitude to the passengers."

Who is at fault ?

yangptangkipperbang

southerndave wrote: »

Entry to the stations and trains are by permission only and your ticket is not an all areas pass - it uses are strictly defined.................... For those without tickets, you are effectively trespassing

Very misleading !

Strictly speaking, stations are indeed private property - but so is every shop, garage forecourt, etc, etc, etc............................

You are NOT trespassing if you do not have a ticket. DfT rules state quite clearly that members of the public must be given access to "public areas". These rules go on to state that the member of the public does not need to be in possession of a travel ticket. The station operator can, if he wishes, charge for a platform ticket however.(Except for persons helping disabled travellers !)
The rules actually state that persons such as "rail enthusiasts" (train spotters, in my day ) MUST be given access.
The operator can order the public off his premises - but this must be for a very good reason: bomb scare, fire, overcrowding, etc...

mucktub86

lgb2100 wrote: »

Who is at fault ?

My first question would be why did they have their friends ticket in the first place if their friend was with them? If it's someone who can't look after their ticket because they're disabled then the company is in the wrong. I can't fathom why you would give your ticket to someone else if you're with them and have the ability to look after it yourself.

I work for the railway as well as commuting by train to work and every time I get on the train there is always an announcement about keeping your ticket with you when moving around the train in case it is checked.

A valid ticket is one that you've bought online/at a ticket machine/at a travel centre/printed at a home, a scanned copy isn't acceptable and to be honest if I were the guard I would fine you on the spot if you failed/refused to show me the proper ticket (can you tell I don't like fare dodgers?). Who says you haven't used photoshop to edit the expiration date and are then committing fraud?

On a side note, I think the BTP for the most part do a good job however one night I did see an officer push a man up against a wall and having witnessed the whole scene, I found that excessive force for some idiot who was mouthing off and was probably drunk/on something. Unfortunately you give someone power and they go on a trip.

Also for every one case of assault against a passenger there are probably 10 assaults against rail staff committed and I would imagine if a railway employee is using force it's because they've been attacked first.

Just my opinion, could be wrong.

L

lgb2100

Maybe the friend didnt have a pocket, and the other friend did.

These werent fare evasion passengers, and produced the tickets when required. They is no notice stating that the passenger must be in possesion of their own ticket.

I am not going to keep my wifes ticket wiyh me when travelling together, and see what inspectors on the system do.