House Purchase - covenant / certificate mega confusion

redonion

johnorama wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Am I right in thinking legally there needs to be 4 days between exchange and completion?

I don't think so, but I think it's normal for a mortgage lender to have a minimum time. Something to do with fraud and money laundering I think.

I'm a FTB too so I don't know for sure.

redonion

G_M wrote: »

It is thus always helpful to understand the legal 'bottom line', which is what I have attempted to make clear.

Agree completely.

johnorama, for what it's worth it sounds to me that despite your evident guilt/embarrassment contemplating it, the landlord might be fine with extending again. Only one way to find out for sure.

redonion

johnorama wrote: »

hi
I also neglected to mention, the vendor has never paid the management fee, nor has anyone on the estate. It was a panic when we first heard that, but we found out that the estate had only been recently finished after being vastly delayed and that was the reason why no one has ever paid anything. It turned out it is the original builder (Charles Church) who has to issue the certificate when this is the case as the management company hasnt taken over yet. The vendor apparently has some contacts there and spoke to their legal team directly.

Presumably the other owner occupiers are in the same boat then? What do they think?

Did you find out who the management company will be and google them? Maybe Charles Church always work with the same company?

Our solicitor has told me "it" says that we dont need the certificate until afterwards. I have had a good read of the deeds and cant see that anywhere myself. Their solicitor says we need it before... and personally i dont see how we can be allowed to buy a house without accepting these clauses on the deeds before / at the point of purchase...

It does seem you may be mixing two different things in your head: whether you need the certificate, and why the seller's solicitor wants you to have it and sign it. Again, my uninformed assumption would be they want you to have it so their client is 100% clearly off the hook.

Whether you need it now is a different question. I'm not a lawyer and have no idea.

Again, since it's apparently in both sides' interest to get the damn thing read and signed, did you consider calling Charles Church direct to get hold of the form that way?

Unfortunately we have 2 young puppies as well which seriously limits our options in terms of places to stay etc if there is a major delay. Extending where we are is also tough, we have had 2 other houses fall through and each time our landlord has been great and has let us extent, almost on a monthly basis ... we dont really want to mess him around any more than we have. Our solicitor tells us as we havent had legal notice to leave we could just stay and refuse to go, theres no way we can do that though - he turned some people who wanted the place away after we had a purchase fall through so we cannot repay him like that! Our solicitor will not understand that its not an option though no matter how many times we say it!

I think only you can decide what best to do re your landlord and your puppies!

Is your solicitor on a fixed fee? Is the least-effort option for the solicitor to do what they're doing now? Perhaps that's why they're doing that, or perhaps not.

johnorama

Thanks for the replies everyone. Very much appreciated.

On the rent front I think if there no movement by tues or wed I will approach our landlord and propose either to extend weekly, him giving us a weeks notice if he gets another tennant (only had 1 viewing so hoping he hasn't) or just another month

As for the certificate - the vendors solicitors claim it's on its way, after the vendor contacted Charles church directly. I contacted the management group myself but they haven't taken over from the builders yet as the estates only just been finished after some delay which means it has to be issued by the builder.

The confusion for me personally is that our solicitor claims it says somewhere we don't need it until afterwards. I have a copy of the deeds and can't find anything of the sort. Not to mention what would happen if we completed but couldn't get the certificate afterwards, when the deeds clearly say the responsibility of the management fee has to be transferred into our names, which the certificate confirms.

I just don't see how it's needed after instead of before. Surely that leaves it open for everyone to buy , refuse the terms of the certificate (annual fee ) and avoid paying. I feel like I can't really call my solicitor out on it as I want to stay on good terms! Not to mention he is indeed on fixed fee so should just want to get it sorted!

redonion

johnorama wrote: »

On the rent front I think if there no movement by tues or wed I will approach our landlord and propose either to extend weekly, him giving us a weeks notice if he gets another tennant (only had 1 viewing so hoping he hasn't) or just another month

To be honest, weekly sounds like a good way to !!!! off your landlord. I'd say extend at least a month, or nothing.

vivatifosi

Re the management co. These clauses are now commonplace. I am a director of a RMC with this type of clause. I would instruct my solicitor to give me the contact details for the company and ask them directly. Where I am, we inform the buyer's sols beforehand and sort out at exchange, so that a new cert can be issued at completion showing you as owner. That doesn't mean everyone does the same mind you, which is why contact is good.

I would also check with your sols that you are aware of any restrictive covenants that may exist, just so you are aware.

johnorama

Thanks again everyone.

Fair point about the landlord - I was running on the train of: if there's no one moving in any money is better than none, and we really are packed up to go - everything dismantled and living out of 1 room. I guess we can ask for a month... Problem there is the money side we can't really pay rent and mortgage in the same month

As for management co - thank you for the comments. I would expect it to be the same, I can't understand how doing it afterwards would work.

We sat down with the solicitor and went through the deeds and restrictive covenants within. Nothing too bad luckily.

Road_Hog

To the OP. WRT the rental, as has been mentioned, when you come off of your signed tenancy agreement, you go onto a periodic agreement, whihc means that you have to give one month's notice and the LL has to give you two month's notice.

Why do the solicitors have different views? Most people tend to think of solicitors as being learned and competent. There are many of them that are rubbish at their job, just like people in other professions. Your solictor probably says that it is okay, to get the house dale through and his fee paid. The seller's solictor is probably @rse covering and doesn't want any come back.

Richard_Webster

It really does depend on the precise wording of the covenants etc and so it is s impossible to give a definitive answer in this kind of situation.

he most common situation is that after completion your solicitor sends a deed of covenant signed by you to the builder/managing agents and they then provide the certificate. usually there is a covenant that if you sign the deed and send it to them they will provide the certificate.

If the identities of the people/companies concerned has changed this might complicate the issue - or the wording could be different from the most common situation.

SavingFish

My experience may not be transferable, but for what it's worth...

I've have to sign plenty of legal documents for business reasons, and it's not at all unusual to have several documents need signing independently, but for the signing of such documents to be conditional upon one another.

Surely a clause could be included in the sale contract that states you will sign the certificate immediately upon completion? That should put the vendors' minds at rest, because then it will be legally binding and you can't just decide "nah, I don't fancy it".

Exact wording would be up to your solicitor of course. I am not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice yada yada yada.