House title plan includes next door!

DrGronod

We are in the process of buying a house, but the plan says the freehold includes the land on which the next door house stands! As a forum regular reader I haven't come across anything like this before, so are trying to unravel it and work out the implications for us and next door if we go through with this.

From what we can gather, the house we are buying (house was built in the grounds of the original house on the plot (house A) by the owner in the 60s, with view to moving into house B and selling house A. But this owner apparently died before he could do so, and the 2 houses were subsequently sold separately. But it seems that the titles were never properly separated out (how sloppy is that?!) and the owner of house B owns the freehold to the whole plot. And since then house B has been bought and sold a couple of times, but house A has remained with the same owner. But the vendor doesn't seem to know much about this at all (selling on behalf of ill parents).

Our solicitor originally just thought it was a derelict house in the grounds which was being thrown in when he first saw the plan and didn’t know it was a fully lived-in dwelling. There are no leases mentioned in the titles on the land registry site, but we now think there is an "unregistered lease" for house A, whatever that means. Who knows what the current owners of house A know of the situation (not sure we want to ask them directly in case it throws another spanner in the works)!

So trying to work out what to think of all this. Does buying house B mean you are just buying the land or are you in fact buying house A as well?! Probably the former, but then would we become their landlords, with this "unregistered lease" and if so what obligations would the buyer of house B have for owning the freehold of house A?

We really want the house and everything else is in place to buy it (no mortgage) but could this be a real stumbling block, or is it nothing to worry about and actually something in our favour?! Should the vendor be sorting this out (doesn't seem keen!)?

Thanks

AdrianC

DrGronod wrote: »

Should the vendor be sorting this out (doesn't seem keen!)?

Your solicitor and the vendor's solicitor need to sort this out between themselves, but - yep - I strongly suspect the vendor's pocket is going to have to take some kind of hit.

If the vendor's _really_ intransigent, to the point of walking away from the sale (although he'll have the same problem with any buyer with a vaguely competent solicitor), and you _desperately_ want _this_ particular house, then you might have to take a decision, but otherwise...

mufi

We had a vaguely similar problem in 2010. This thread, started by my beloved, may help a little: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2667531=

DrGronod

mufi wrote: »

We had a vaguely similar problem in 2010. This thread, started by my beloved, may help a little....

OK - thanks will have a look!

Mallotum_X

Does house A have its own title deeds, check this on the Land registry, it may be that house B details are wrong but house A has the correct info, which may help avoid the need to get house A involved.

G_M

Silly (obvious) question - the 'plan' you are looking at is the up-to-date current Plan registered at the LR?

It's not one dated from the last sale? Or from when the house was built? It's not the builder's Plan of the site? Or some other (council?) plan?

Richard_Webster

When you look at the title plan is the area for house A edged green with a different number in it in green, but still inside the red edged area? If so, you will only be getting the area not edged green.

Poppy9

Surely your solicitor should be advising you about this as he has sight of plans etc. and you are paying him for his expertise.

the_insider

Not much help to you, but an interesting aside - when I worked for a conveyancing firm we had a client come to us for a re-mortgage and it turned out the solicitor that dealt with the sale of the leasehold he held for a property on his land had inadvertently transferred the freeholds for both properties to the couple that had bought a flat in the leasehold property. So nice mr and Mrs Smith in their one bedroom flat were in fact the owners of three large houses making up six flats and a family home, along with 4 acres of land! It happens, let the solicitors thrash it out.

DrGronod

Hi


Thanks for replies so far and sorry for delay in replying.....

Mallotum_X wrote: »

Does house A have its own title deeds, check this on the Land registry, it may be that house B details are wrong but house A has the correct info, which may help avoid the need to get house A involved.

G_M wrote: »

Silly (obvious) question - the 'plan' you are looking at is the up-to-date current Plan registered at the LR?

It's not one dated from the last sale? Or from when the house was built? It's not the builder's Plan of the site? Or some other (council?) plan?

Yes, we have the latest downloaded plans from the Land Registry - the title plans for each property show exactly the same red line area including both houses.Talking to the neighbour on the other side they seemed to know about House B "owning the land" for House A. But haven't spoken to owners of House A yet.

Richard_Webster wrote: »

When you look at the title plan is the area for house A edged green with a different number in it in green, but still inside the red edged area? If so, you will only be getting the area not edged green.

The plan for House A doesn't have a green line (or any number) on it. Just a red line around what I guess was their original plot which now contains the 2 houses. The plan for House B also shows this same red line plot. To make life more complicated there is an extra area of garden included on the title for House B (green line?) which was bought from an adjoining house, and this is lease-hold (a lot of houses are lease-hold in this area, but some have bought the freehold over the years). [eta]The line for the whole boundary (green line?) for House B covers the whole red line area plus this extra bit.

We agree the solicitors should be sorting this out, but we aren't sure how experienced they are in getting to grips with this (ours should be but you just don't know, or know about the other end). And yes mistakes do happen, but who should the onus be to resolve this - the vendor, the buyer (us) or even the owners of House A, who haven't been involved yet but should they be involved? Or is it not actually a mistake, but we will actually be buying the land to include House A, but they have this "unregistered lease" on it.

The vendors wanted a quick sale, but now don't seem to be taking responsibility for much at the moment!

If the Land Registry need to be involved as with Mufi's and RW's quoted case there, should this be done before purchase or can it safely be done afterwards?

Thanks,

Better_Days

Oh dear, it must be horrible for something like this to come up when you are ready to proceed.

I would think it would be for the vendor to sort out. They are daft if they are sticking their head in the sand as this would come up if they remarketed. I can't see how you can be expected to sort this out before you buy as you don't own either of the properties!

Can you push your solicitor to push the vendors solicitor to clarify who owns what. Trouble is that if you do purchase as things stand then there is the potential for further legal expenses arising down the line when your neighbour wants to sell.