Toilet Siphon - trying to fit - problems HELP PLS

waterwatereverywhere

Hi,

I hope someone can help. We're trying to fit a new toilet siphon - new to this!! Have lots of questions hope someone can help as the cistern is currently off...

1. Bought Dual Flush Siphon from Wickes. Didn't realise it is bigger (9") than the old one we've taken out. Does this matter? It still seems to fit in the cistern ok and the lid still fits on.

2. The replacement siphon has two holes with bungs in them. Packaging says you keep or remove one or both of these depending on how many litres of water your cistern carries. Have NO IDEA about this. How can we find out/does it really matter? Should we just remove one - if so the top or bottom one? The old siphon had BOTH BUNGS out of it but whole thing was fitted as such a botch job I wouldn't like to trust in this being correct.

3. How do we know what is correct level to re-fill water to inside cistern once it is up and running again? Have had problems for ages with it not flushing adequately if you know what I mean... should we put a high level in it so it has plenty of water?

4. Old one we took off had a MASSIVE ring of thick silicon around the hole in the toilet pan where the donut washer goes - I presume this is incorrect as the You Tube videos I've watched haven't recommended this. Why would this have been done in first place? The hole in the pan is much bigger than the hole in the cistern where the pipe comes out. Could it be that the pan and cistern don't match? Worried now....!!

Sorry, clueless....any advice gratefully received.

waterwatereverywhere

Hi,

Sorry, another question or two. Do we need to use silicone and or PTFE tape anywhere when putting all the bits back together, e.g. siphon, water fill valve, re-connecting overflow?

Reason I ask is the old one, as I said had a ton of silicone in places and also, strangely tons of PTFE tape wrapped around the siphon INSIDE the cistern. Probably this is why it has been leaking for so long.... !

Thanks again in advance.

keystone

Lesson number one without words. Don't attempt projects you haven't thought through on a Sunday evening.

Pics needed plus an idea of which syphon (make/model) you have bought.

waterwatereverywhere wrote: »

2. The replacement siphon has two holes with bungs in them. Packaging says you keep or remove one or both of these depending on how many litres of water your cistern carries. Have NO IDEA about this. How can we find out/does it really matter? Should we just remove one - if so the top or bottom one? The old siphon had BOTH BUNGS out of it but whole thing was fitted as such a botch job I wouldn't like to trust in this being correct.

Make and model?

3. How do we know what is correct level to re-fill water to inside cistern once it is up and running again? Have had problems for ages with it not flushing adequately if you know what I mean... should we put a high level in it so it has plenty of water?

It should refill so that the fill valve shuts off before it starts overflowing. Should be a fill to line in the ceramic of the cistern.

4. Old one we took off had a MASSIVE ring of thick silicon around the hole in the toilet pan where the donut washer goes - I presume this is incorrect as the You Tube videos I've watched haven't recommended this. Why would this have been done in first place? The hole in the pan is much bigger than the hole in the cistern where the pipe comes out. Could it be that the pan and cistern don't match? Worried now....!!

Is it close coupled or do you have a flush pipe? As you had a doughnut then it has to be assumed you mean close coupled. In which case what do you mean by "where the pipe comes out"? Do you mean the threaded part of the syphon? Yes it could possibly mean that they don't match but not necessarily so. Silicone etc not needed if parts match and assembled correctly. Oh and you should always replace the doughnut with a new one.

waterwatereverywhere wrote: »

Sorry, another question or two. Do we need to use silicone and or PTFE tape anywhere when putting all the bits back together, e.g. siphon, water fill valve, re-connecting overflow?

No but you will need a new fibre washer for the tap connector and a new doughnut as above.

Reason I ask is the old one, as I said had a ton of silicone in places and also, strangely tons of PTFE tape wrapped around the siphon INSIDE the cistern. Probably this is why it has been leaking for so long.... !

Mega bodge job. Totally unecessary.

waterwatereverywhere

Hello Keystone

Many thx - yes I know Sunday night not ideal - blame the weather forecast - said it would be wet today so doing outdoor jobs all day yesterday...

I'm going to try to attach photos to help.

Yes, close coupled.

Siphon I bought from Wickes it is a "Dual Flush Siphon" - it is actually an "Opella 9" - see photo. This is the same type of siphon as was in the toilet originally - just that it is a bit taller than the old one.

Pic of siphon shows the two blue circles which are the bungs I was talking about. On old siphon both of these were removed, but not confident this was correct?

What I mean by hole is the hole in the ceramic in the toilet pan has a diameter of just over 7cm (2.5"). Whereas the hole in the bottom of the cistern (where the siphon is pushed through) has a diameter of 5cm (2").

I have bought two new close coupling kits with donut washers - one from B&Q, the other from Wickes. They have very different donut washers. B&Q one is much bigger and fatter so am thinking this might give a better seal?

Does the FLAT bit of the donut washer go against the siphon or the loo and which order should I put the metal plate/donut washer on?

Pls can I check what you mean by the tap connector - do you mean the water inlet pipe - that I need to buy a new washer for that? I don't think there was one there previously - the plastic nut just undid?

Many thanks for any help - on a mission to get this sorted today hopefully.

PHOTOS BELOW (hopefully...)





http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/Ebaysalestuff96/MSEPics/ToiletPanlargehole2_zpse1ae2d57.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/Ebaysalestuff96/MSEPics/ToiletPanlargehole_zpsedf298c1.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/Ebaysalestuff96/MSEPics/ToiletCistern_zps2b4b3238.jpg

waterwatereverywhere

Hi again,

Just noticed that inside cistern is embossed with "09" - so assume this means it is a 9 litre?

If so, the packaging on the new siphon says for a 9 litre "both bungs should be fitted". So assume this means to leave them in place. Is this correct because the old siphon we're taking out had both of the bungs removed.

Many thx.

DavidFx

The dual flush operates as follows:

If the lever is held down then the toilet will flush until the cistern water level reaches the bottom of the right hand chamber (in your photo).
If the lever is released then the flush will finish when the water level reaches the removed bung. If both bungs are removed then the top one takes precedence - if both are in place then the reduced flush will be the same as the full flush.

Assembly is syphon - rubber washer - cistern - metal plate then nut.

The doughnut is placed over the nut and the end of the syphon pipe

As the end of the syphon pipe sits down inside the WC pan the doughnut does not need to be water tight - it acts as a splash guard.

The overflow pipe is redundant as the syphon has one built in.

You will need a fibre washer in the water connection - a bit of boss white will help but no PTFE tape as the seal is via the washer not the threads. It is very easy to cross-thread this connection when reattaching.

The 09 mark on the cistern is most probably the mould number used to make the cistern.

Finally - when you have assembled the cistern - place it on a piece of newspaper on a table and pour in a couple of litres of water. It is much easier to check for leaks (and repair them) when the cistern is not fitted.

keystone

waterwatereverywhere wrote: »

If so, the packaging on the new siphon says for a 9 litre "both bungs should be fitted". So assume this means to leave them in place. Is this correct because the old siphon we're taking out had both of the bungs removed.

Many thx.

It should be on the instructions. Both bungs in give an approx 9 litre flush. Top one only with bottom removed gives an approx 7 litre flush. Bottom one only with top one removed gives an approx 6 litre flush. A votre choix.

Cheers

waterwatereverywhere

Thank you very much DavidFx and Keystone. I will follow your advice and report back - can't tell you how much I'm not looking forward to this....

Just one last question - do you rate the "Torbeck" style fill valves? At the moment the old system is an ordinary one with a ballcock. That seems to have been working okay as far as I can tell but is it worth changing that to a Torbeck one whilst everything is apart? Are they more better/more reliable?

Thanks again!

keystone

waterwatereverywhere wrote: »

Just one last question - do you rate the "Torbeck" style fill valves? Are they more better/more reliable?

Nope - not
for one minute and no they are not IMHO. Fit a decent Fluidmaster with a brass shank if you want to change the fill valve.



Cheers

waterwatereverywhere

Hi,

Thanks for help and advice on here. Just reporting back.... all is up and running. Did not change water inlet pipe in the end as couldn't even undo the nut holding this on!!

Just one question, I haven't re-connected the mains water inlet yet (just tested it by filling in bottles of water to check for leaks). I'm a bit worried about the mains water in because the pipe bringing the water is copper. It only has a copper/metal nut on it - a compression fitting I think. This is all that screws on to the plastic threaded water inlet pipe thing coming out of the toilet.

But the plastic pipe and the copper are around the same size so they don't fit into each other, they just basically touch each other and the copper compression nut is all that goes over the top to hold them together. Is this correct? it is how it has been for the last 5 years without problems, but it doesn't seem all that secure to me.

Should I be putting PTFE tape in the thread here and if so how? There seems to be some remnants of some of this in there already.

Sorry to ask so many questions!!

keystone

Thats exactly correct. What you have is called a tap connector and yes the ring in the fitting just fits snug up against the base of the threaded part of the valve. Between the ring on the copper and the base of the valve is where the fibre washer (don't forget you need a new one) goes. If you don't have one you need to spring down to themerchant (bit late now) or a shed and get some. You need a half inch fibre washer. Don't go looking for metric ones they doen't exist. The nut just pulls the two together. No you do not need any PTFE or anything like that - its the washer that does the work not the nut or the threads.



In this image you can see the red fibre washer in the compression tap connector F and also on its own at I. E is a similar fitting but its a soldered obnto the pipe rather than being a compression fitting. I'm presuming you have one of these rather than the pushfit types at C & D. A is the shank of the fill valve and B the backnut which secures the valve into the cistern.

Very easy to cross-thread on a plastic valve shank so take care and also all to easy to overtighten and strip the thread. Thats two reasons I like the brass shank ones.

Don't be sorry. You are doing well..

Cheers