'Is it time to applaud politicians who U-turn?' blog discussion

Former_MSE_Helen

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

Read Martin's "Is it time to applaud politicians who U-turn?" Blog.

Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.

redux

I remember an old saying:

If you have someone who is good in a crisis, get rid of them, or else you'll always be having one.

HanSpan

I resonponded to the fb post with the message below, and olny after realised it was s 50 word max so I suspect it won't show there! anyway.

I've always found people willing to admit they have made a mistake, or had a wrong opinion, far more trust inducing than those who insist they were right even when they are really clearly not.
I have no problem admitting I was wrong - or changing my opinion and explaining why. However I realise I'm in the minority - and the way I behave actually irritates some people, and some say there's no point in arguing with me as I always win! This is most certainly not true - I just am quick to realise - and admit when I realise - I was wrong, so I only really argue when I'm absolutely certain.
So for me personally - yes - I'd love to see politicians admit when they were wrong and perform a U-turn, but I can also see why they are so disinclined to do so. It would be lovely if enough could be brave enough to do so, and see how it turned out, but I suspect that is not ever going to happen:(

Mobeer

U-turns are bad:

A politician says they have a set of beliefs and a corresponding set of policies
A voter supports those policies and votes for the politician
The politician "does a U-turn" and enacts different policies to those previously announced

The voter finds that they cannot "do a U-turn", and that their vote still counts as before.

jimmy_81

Mobeer wrote: »

U-turns are bad:

A politician says they have a set of beliefs and a corresponding set of policies
A voter supports those policies and votes for the politician
The politician "does a U-turn" and enacts different policies to those previously announced

The voter finds that they cannot "do a U-turn", and that their vote still counts as before.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. A party should have a few clear, simple, guiding principles, but policy proposals will - and have to - delve into the nitty-gritty of practically getting stuff done.

How many of us, facing a complex problem, have succeeded first time around? How often have we realised that, with the best intentions, our actions haven't quite given us the outcomes we intended - and so we've made changes to our plans?

And that's for everyday problems in work or at home, where we're only dealing with ourselves, a few colleagues or family members. Just imagine how much more complex and unpredictable it is when decisions affect the whole of the UK...

So yes, I completely agree - we should applaud politicians who change policies when they realise they won't work. I want somebody in power who makes realistic, pragmatic decisions that get results, not somebody who sticks rigidly to dogmatic ideology against all real world evidence.

Sadly our adversarial political system makes this very unlikely... Could be worse though, we could be in the USA! :rotfl:

bap98189

Mobeer wrote: »

U-turns are bad:
A politician says they have a set of beliefs and a corresponding set of policies
A voter supports those policies and votes for the politician
The politician "does a U-turn" and enacts different policies to those previously announced
The voter finds that they cannot "do a U-turn", and that their vote still counts as before.

Which would be a good argument if all policies enacted by politicians were thought of before the election, but that doesn't happen, not least because there are 5 years between each election. No government could know exactly what they will have to do 5 years in advance.

What would be preferable would be:

Politician says "we propose doing X - anyone agree/disagree"?
People offer opinions, debate the issue, experts crunch the numbers and it becomes obvious it's not a great idea after all.
Politician says "OK got that idea wrong, we'll do a u-turn".

meher

very good blog because this has nagged me over the time when i see some labour party supporting astroturfers ridiculing the conservatives on their u turn on their policies

at least it means that they are listening, open to ideas, demonstrate a good sense of judgement unlike their fanatic, insightless, illiberal, hypocritical, self serving, seedy, dishonest critics

meher

in any case how can anyone be so sure that it was a u turn; may be it was plan b

it is a pity though that he didn't make a u turn on his decision to liaise with the spineless lib dem baggage

Naf

Mobeer wrote: »

U-turns are bad:

A politician says they have a set of beliefs and a corresponding set of policies
A voter supports those policies and votes for the politician
The politician "does a U-turn" and enacts different policies to those previously announced

The voter finds that they cannot "do a U-turn", and that their vote still counts as before.

You're presuming that a U-turn means what its name says; that after heading in a very right wing direction, you then suddenly head directly left wing instead (feel free to switch those directions around too). Because yes, that sort of flip-flop policy-making is terrible for voters, terrible for politicians and terrible for getting anything done.
But u-turn is a term applied to anytime that anything a politician says or does changes in any way shape or form. David Cameron could turn around and reverse all the cuts that people are up in arms for, and he'd be hung drawn & quartered in the following day's press for making a u-turn, getting things wrong, not being consistent etc.
Politicians live in fear of this type of thing damaging their entire image, and so take forever to make any decisions.

mazza111

I'd certainly have more respect for them if they'd to look at things again, see where it isn't working. See how they can change it. I do think it could work, just not in it's present form.

gainsboroughgirl

Humility is the key to all human relationships. For many, the word humility has connotations of piety (often with religious connotations)and head- bowed cowardice.Not so. True humilty is quite the opposite- it's about positive self reflection and reasoning, it's about repentence and the resolve to change for the bettering of oneself and ultimately, others.The problem is that humilty is often seen as something to be jeered at. In politics, this tends to be done by the media and whoever is the opposition at the time. If politicians on all sides of an agrument were equally willing to admit their mistakes even if this means an opposing view was correct after all, we would eventually have Utopia! It's probably this very vision that first drives true politicians (not careerist ones) into politics in the first place. It's so refreshing to see young idealists of any persuasion with their heartfelt views and so sad 20 years later to see them spinning and besmirching opponents. However, idealism is exactly that and time teaches us that no one size fits all and even the best attempts at change often have unforseen or unfortunate consequences eg the 'bedroom tax'. This is where humility comes in- it doesn't necessarily mean your intentions were wrong but that the outcome may have ended up perhaps worse than the problem you were trying to solve. It's a sad reality that there is way too little humility around at the moment generally and nowhere more than in the political sphere; this is a known known and part of the human condition, but that does not mean we should not fight against it and it starts in ourselves. So, I'm with you, Martin- let's see some humility from our politicians; when this happens people will trust again and re engage with politics and the democratic process.