Bank Fraud! Santander!!!

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

meer53 wrote: »

In nearly 30 years of bank employment, i've never known any "dodgy" bank staff.

You've obviously led a charmed life - or one that has been insulated from anything that might cause you to question anyone other than a customer about fraud? :rotfl:

Here's just a quick selection from Googling the words bank employee fraud
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/indian-banker-at-barclays-stole-money-from-accounts-104729
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2385311/Former-Barclays-worker-stole-127-000-Birmingham-bank-cover-payday-loans-took-feed-gambling-addiction.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7067336/Anti-fraud-banker-jailed-for-stealing-170000-to-feed-drink-and-cocaine-habits.html
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2006/jun/28/business.accounts
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/ex-birmingham-bank-employee-jailed-over-4710755
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2021846/Bank-staff-fraud-increase-customers-accounts-targeted.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2267365/Credit-card-fraud-victims-having-wait-longer-money-banks-dragging-heels.html


Finally, a possibly interesting paper written 13 years ago about who carries the risk of fraud including the story of a police officer who found himself in much the same position as the OP and was even suspended from his job until he won an appeal shows how the banks have it far too much there own way: http://www.fipr.org/WhoCarriesRiskOfFraud.htm

meer53

There are always going to be people who commit fraud, in all walks of life. I haven't led a charmed life, i stated that I had never met any bank employee who had committed fraud. I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't go on.

My comments relate to this post, yours seem to have gone off at a considerable tangent. Your posts are also far too long and rambling, you'll find a lot of posters won't bother to read them, they don't contribute anything if they aren't read.

What i'm saying is that in my opinion what has happened to the OP is not fraud. It is what could be classed as gross negligence. Thats obviously how Santander are looking at the case and it's how i would look at it too.

Dr_Cuckoo3

meer53 wrote: »

I have a lot of life experience. And a lot of bank experience too. I've worked for banks (just 2) for the last 30 years. The majority of this time in a fraud department so i've dealt with cases like the OP's lots of times.

And

meer53 wrote: »

They will have investigated the withdrawals and checked whether the PIN was read by the ATM. Bank systems will show this. If the PIN has been read, then the original card and PIN have been used. So far, fraudsters have been unable to make a counterfeit card with a chip.

The quick question to test knowledge is - do you know which bank's ATM's use the magnetic strip and which use the chip ?

No need to name the banks

There are a few posts in this thread mentioning this subject eg the post quoted below

reclusive46 wrote: »

A lot of ATMS will still accept a cloned magnetic stripe card (Even if the magnetic stripe says it should be a chip card) as the ATM and bank just assume the chip is dirty or broken (fallback). So all they need is magnetic stripe data and PIN.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

meer53 wrote: »

My comments relate to this post, yours seem to have gone off at a considerable tangent. Your posts are also far too long and rambling, you'll find a lot of posters won't bother to read them, they don't contribute anything if they aren't read.

Really? Well I must admit, I don't write for the benefit of any posters at all other than the OP. Afterall, regular posters tend to hold fixed opinions and are not easily disposed to reading opposing views. No I tend to write more for the benefit of the great unwashed who might stumble on the thread and read, and then wonder, what on earth it really might mean to hold a dangerous loaded debit card in their pocket without the proper training.

What i'm saying is that in my opinion what has happened to the OP is not fraud. It is what could be classed as gross negligence. Thats obviously how Santander are looking at the case and it's how i would look at it too.

Yes why am I not surprised? Gross negligence, eh? By the customer ? Ah yes of course. So a bank fraud department worker of 30 years experience who claims never to have met a dodgy colleague wishes it to be known that in his or her opinion the customer known in this thread as the OP whom he or she's never met either, has been grossly negligent and consequently only has him or herself to blame for someone taking money from the bank? That means there is no fraud, because it is just like leaving cash on a park bench - is that it?

You seem to crop up with contributions on a lot of the threads about fraud and bank accounts on MSE, meer53. In this post I see that 18 months ago you posted that you'd worked for First Direct for 18 years. Wasn't the subject of one of those articles I found earlier about the jailed head of an anti-fraud department at First Direct?

I guess an anti-fraud department is not the same as a fraud department else you might have met him! Oh but hang on - I see he worked in the fraud department for 13 years as at 2008 or 2009 or 2010 was it when he was caught? Maybe he worked in the Gross Negligence department - he did afterall get himself caught :rotfl: Odd that he seems to have escaped marking himself out as a dodgy bank worker on your radar? Maybe Fraud, Anti-Fraud and Gross Negligence is too big to get to know the actual people involved.


Uh huh ... I think we all get the drift of the way banking culture is headed now.

Thanks for the contribution, meer53.

jamesd

meer53 wrote: »

What i'm saying is that in my opinion what has happened to the OP is not fraud. It is what could be classed as gross negligence. Thats obviously how Santander are looking at the case and it's how i would look at it too.

If someone is taking and returning the card, that's not gross negligence. If someone has shoulder surfed to gather the PIN, that's also not gross negligence. The FOS has ruled in favour of customers in cases of this type that reach them, for example in case 89/05.

At least on what we know so far in this case, if you tried that approach, you'd be setting the bank up for a ruling against it from the FOS.

TurnUpForTheBooks, please at least be polite to meer53 when disagreeing. It's useful to know how current and former bank employees view things and how things work and not acting properly towards them tends to discourage such useful information sharing. It's also rather hard to point them to relevant FOS decisions if they don't end up sharing their thoughts, and that can make things worse for future customers.

JuicyJesus

jamesd wrote: »

TurnUpForTheBooks, please at least be polite to meer53 when disagreeing. It's useful to know how current and former bank employees view things and how things work and not acting properly towards them tends to discourage such useful information sharing. It's also rather hard to point them to relevant FOS decisions if they don't end up sharing their thoughts, and that can make things worse for future customers.

Personally I thought TurnUpForTheBooks' gratuitous bit of ad-hominem towards someone else based solely on someone who used to work for the company they (used to?) work for was utterly disgraceful. It also had absolutely no relevance to anything in this thread.

meer53

TurnUpForTheBooks - If you read my post properly, instead of selecting bits that you can have a rant about, you'll see that i said it could be classed as gross negligence. Different banks will make different decisions.

We, "the great unwashed" in your opinion, tend to comment on the situation which is described, using our experiences at work and in life. Personally, i think you're on the wrong forum.

nomunnofun

meer53 wrote: »

TurnUpForTheBooks - If you read my post properly, instead of selecting bits that you can have a rant about, you'll see that i said it could be classed as gross negligence. Different banks will make different decisions.

We, "the great unwashed" in your opinion, tend to comment on the situation which is described, using our experiences at work and in life. Personally, i think you're on the wrong forum.

I was going to weigh in with my own experience with Santander until I noticed how the thread had deteriorated. I suspect that turnupforthebooks may have a different agenda and, basically, appears to like an argument.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4761272

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

I think meer53, you misunderstood "the great unwashed" - by that, I didn't mean bank worker posters, who no doubt always come up smelling of roses, I meant everyone else!

Your post made it plain that you as a bank fraud department decision-maker would have denied the OPs claim on suspicion of gross negligence.

If you are saying you would have denied it because it "could be gross negligence" then isn't that an even worse reflection on the culture promulgated within banks ?

And as for me referring to your personal standpoint as a bank worker, you made it plain you wished to give weight to your arguments by stating a bit about who you are - in fact you did it after making fun of my statement about my own experience. You would have MSE readers believe you are stating smething approaching an expert opinion. Let's boil it down, shall we?

You wish to press the position that the bank is correct to deny this customer the return of their own money following a fraud.

You have stated despite being given very limited information that you conclude that this is not a fraud case but a gross negligence case.

As jamesd suggests, it might be interesting to know why you think that there is enough evidence already given for it to be ok for someone like you in your day job to deny the return of money to a customer like the OP. But in actual fact for a number of reasons I personally do not think it would be useful at all.

One of those reasons is because of that truly ludicrous assertion that you as a fraud department bank worker of 30 years standing had no knowledge of dodgy bank workers ! I showed you a Telegraph report of a jailed fraud department manager at the very bank where you chose to tell MSE forum readers you had worked for 18 years. I grant that you may never have met him but are you so unaware as to now try to justify such a misleading generalisation which you were using to throw readers off the scent of other possible scenarios in this thread? Did you mean to do that?

Another of those reasons is because in my own broad experience of business and interpretations of contracts and financial services I KNOW that any resort to bringing a claim of gross negligence against a customer is scraping the bottom of a rotten barrel. It is a question of culture. Accusing a customer of gross negligence is not a very cultured thing to do - EVER! (in my book and in those I recommend to the great unwashed!)

Jamesd, again I take your point that we could via these forums gently educate bank workers and correct where they are going wrong with patient and polite steering and interrogation, but for goodness sakes, why aren't the executive at the bank doing that? I don't think the banks or those that work for them have learned anything over the past 5 years except that they can keep their jobs and actually continue to make huge profits no matter how badly they upset customers as long as they all behave the same way.

There is a further function for these forums and that is as a platform for exposing anti-consumer activity by corporates. If a poster comes on and aligns themselves directly with anti-consumer activity, does that really merit handling them with kid-gloves? I mean come on, meer53, you did say that you'd do exactly the same as Santander in this case, yet no case has been been made by you or anyone else to justify it.

lizals

I do hope I can be excused for using this thread. I am 65 and kept looking where I could post to no avail.

We have a holiday home in Spain and whilst there on the 10th July, the day before we were due to come home, we were robbed whilst sitting in the front garden and the robber/robbers scaling a 7ft wall. They took jewellery, money, passports,driving licences everything that was important to us. We bank with Lloydstsb in the UK and after a nightmare trauma of missing flights and having to borrow money off near strangers to get home we armed with our new 24 hr passports finally got home. Even though the Guardia Civil interpreter phoned Easyjet and he was told we could board the plane with our Denuncia (Crime Report) this wasnt true. When my husband was on the phone to Lloydstsb on the 13th July the same day we arrived home, he was accused of being involved and they wouldnt accept the claim. I thought my husband was going to have a heart attack with what he was being accused of. Well I then emailed Lloydstsb immediately and told them about their Fraud Team Member and a nice lady phoned me and after days of worry we finally got everything back. Our bank in Spain is a different story. They took out 600 euros of our Account within 1 hr of the Robbery we went into the bank the next day and was told it was no good claiming as we wouldnt get it back as we had used our pin nos. which were our birthdays. The card had been cancelled as soon as we were aware it had been stolen. We were both traumatised and it it only when I got home that I started to investigate. I requested claim forms from them as the Robbers had made 4 transactions from 4 Banks in Crevillente which is about 40 mins drive from where our house is. The bank sent me 4 claims form via email for me to print off and sign and scan and send back. This was done immediately I cannot get access to the account as my Internet Banking Card was stolen as well so wasnt aware whether the money had been credited to our Account or not. I have sent 7 emails with no response whatsoever. I was told at the time of reporting and cancelling the card that a new card would be sent out, but that hasnt been received here in the UK. So the emails were asking to let us know whether this money had been put back in as we have bills to pay and need to know whether to transfer money from here. Not one response. Last week a lady from the Bank phoned to tell me that the Police had contacted them and that our Passports/Licences/Cards etc., had been found and was we were aware these had been stolen!! This was a member of our own Bank staff, wasnt aware of that until I did 1471 and phoned back and was shocked to find she was a member of our bank staff..and why did she not look at the account and see that the card had been cancelled on the 10th July. I asked her where the 600 euros was and she said you wont get it back as your Pin Nos. were your birthday and it is like you have taken the money yourself. So I started to investigate and apparently Santander brought out new banking legislation which says that the only time they can refuse you is if you have the same pin nos for more than one card, we only have 1 card as they charge each year for each additional card!! I printed off this newspaper article as I felt that if Santander are doing that all the other Spanish Banks will follow and added this to yet another email, still no response to date. We are going to Spain on the 14th October. After the trauma and under doctor for high blood pressure I feel I dont want to argue anymore, but would like advice where to go from here and be ready for when we go into the Bank when we get to Spain and have some amunition as we feel this money should be credited to our Account as nowhere does it say you cannot use your pin nos. as you birthday, even though we have changed our UK ones to a different one now!!

The bank have a copy of the 5 page Denuncia which was raised on the 11th July..although both local Police and Guardia Civil did come out straight away on the evening on the 10th July, but we had to go into the Guardia on the 11th to obtain our Report. The really annoying thing is that we have now found out we could have actually claimed on our Insurance here had we known we wouldnt get our money back. That case has now been closed though and that isnt now possible.

Sorry this reads a bit like War and Peace but felt I needed to paint the full picture.

Help and advice needed by 2 Law Abiding Old Age Pensioners.

Liz & Alan (Cheshire)