Parking Eye reply to defence and notice to proceed

Sweetrevenge

Hi everyone, long time no see!!

I'm starting a thread on here, same as one on CAG, so that I can get as much advice as possible.

I am being taken to court by Parking Eye for breaching a 'contract' I didn't even know was in existence at the time.

I have used a local retail park's parking area for approx 18 months up until January this year. At the start there was no parking management on it, no parking charges or fees, and no limit to the amount of time you could stay. As someone on a minimum wage and having to watch every penny, I liked!
I did the same in January this year. It was snowing, I saw no signs at driving eye level, I went for my hairdo (just off the site), the electrics in the hairdressers broke down and I ended up staying on the car park for 3 hours 20 minutes. I didn't even realise that Parking Eye had put a max 2 hours in place. I left and then got the letters. Having googled Parking Eye, I saw lots of people advising the letters were basically invoices and they had no rights to charge, so to ignore the letters and they would go away. Of course, as I now know, this didn't happen and I have had to send an initial defence to their claim against me. I have also received a Notice to proceed and a Directions questionnaire which I have to file by 30 September , so time is a little short .

I have typed up (no scanner) the full details of the 'reply to defence' submitted by Parking Eye and will attempt a link to it here : http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=46485&d=1379445927.

I have numbered each paragraph and would welcome any advice about what to do next. I think my initial defence should have stated that I was unaware of the signs - is it too late to add this in somehow? Or can I present that at the court date?

Any advice gratefully received.

Regards
Sweet

Coupon-mad

I can't see that 'reply to defence' because I am not on CAG any more as it has hit-and-miss bad advice, advert pop-ups and random posters with a strange agenda and Mods with a hatred of links being posted to help people!

Can you copy & paste what you put in your defence and what they have replied with?

Computersaysno

As an aside it might be worth checking what the planning permission for the site says. Many sites are not allowed to charge for parking.

Sweetrevenge

Thanks for your replies.

I have copied and pasted their reply to my defence here and the text of my defence will appear in the next post:



(Parking Eye Logo)

Defendant

Defendant's address

Date

Claim No: XXXXXXXXXXX

Our Ref: XXXXXXXXXXX

Vehicle Registration: XXXXXXXXXXX

Notice to Proceed

ParkingEye wishes to proceed with this County Court Claim. Please find attached the N180 form
and the reply to defence for the case between ParkingEye Ltd and XXXXXXXXXX.

Kind Regards

Legal Department

ParkingEye



In the NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COURT BULK CENTRECLAIM NO: XXXXX

BETWEEN

CLAIMANT: ParkingEye Ltd

AND

DEFENDANT: XXXXXXXXXXX

Reply to Defence

1 ParkingEye agrees with the defendant on this point.


2 ParkingEye does not dispute this.


3 ParkingEye's Parking Charges are issued on the basis of a contract with the motorist, set out
via the signage at the site. The signage sets out the terms and conditions under which a
motorist is authorised to park, be that by payment of the appropriate paid parking tariff or by
parking within a limited stay period or similar, and that a Parking Charge will be payable if
the conditions are not met. We ensure signage is ample, clear and visible in line with the
British Parking Association (BPA) code of practice to ensure that the motorist is bound by
them when they enter and remain at a client site, so that all users of the site are obliged to
follow these rules. This is a matter of contract law. In ParkingEye v Kevin Shelley (2013),
Circuit Judge Dodd stated that a contract can be formed by conduct, not just in writing He
further stated that the contract, as set out on the signage, is clear and certain enough, and that
the terms were clear and easy to understand. He stated that it was not common for the
courts to find penalty terms within a contract. It was further found that, on private land, the
landholder is entitled to set out terms and conditions, subject to law, and that these are fully
enforceable.

3.1 The case of Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2000) proves
particularly useful in respect to the creation of a contract with the driver. It was found
by Lord Justice Waller that:

“Normally the presence of notices which are posted where they are bound to be seen, for
example the entrance to a private car park, which are of a type which the car driver would
be bound to have read, will lead to a finding that the car driver had knowledge of an
appreciated the warning.”

3.2 The driver is not coerced into using the car park. If the driver was not prepared
to agree to the terms and conditions set out on the signage, they should not have used the
car park. However by driving into the car park and parking their vehicle the driver
agrees to the parking terms detailed on the signage. In ParkingEye Ltd v Kevin Shelley
(2013), Circuit Judge Dodd found that, on private land, the landholder is entitled to set
out terms and conditions, subject to law, and that these are fully enforceable.
Furthermore it should be noted that Section 7.1 of the Department of Transport's
guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 states
that a:






“car park on private land will normally have signs setting out the terms and conditions
upon which parking is offered”.

3.3 In accordance with this ParkingEye's car parks have ample and clear signage that
outlines these terms and conditions. Section 7.1 further states that:

“Drivers can then decide whether or not to accept those terms and conditions. In most
cases a driver who parks in a car park with clear signage setting out the terms and
conditions will be deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions and therefore entered
into a contract to park with the landholder.”

3.4 In this location, as the images attached show, there is clear and ample signage at
the entrance to and throughout the car park. ParkingEye firmly believes that the
defendant entered into a legally enforceable contract.


3.5 In the case, Vehicle Control Systems Ltd v HM Revenue & Customs 2012, the
Upper Tribunal found that:

“On the facts of this case we do not consider that any offer was made by VCS that was
capable of forming the basis for a contract between it and the motorist. VCS was not in a
position, by virtue of its limited licence, to make any offer of a right to park. The ability to
offer such a right was not conferred by the contract with the client, either expressly or by
virtue of the interest in the car park conferred on VCS. That interest did not amount to a
licence to occupy, or give VCS any right to possession. It merely conferred a right of entry
to perform VCS's obligations under the contract.”

3.6 VCS did not have the authority to take legal action in their own name, 'by virtue
of its limited licence”. This does not apply to ParkingEye as our contract with our client
clearly expresses that we can take legal action to recover any unpaid Parking Charges, in
line with the British Parking Association Code of Practice.


3.7 We include a witness statement signed by the landholder confirming that [stet]
had the written authority to issue Parking Charges at this time of this Parking event and
that this authority is contained in a contract. The contract itself contains much
commercial information which is not related to this case and therefore we are disinclined
to divulge it. However, a copy will be made available to the court if requested by the
court.

4 In relation to the value of the Parking Charge, ParkingEye maintains that its charges are fair
and reasonable. Furthermore ParkingEye firmly believes that its Parking Charges are not
punitive or a penalty. A charge of £75 pounds was found by HHJ Hegarty QC in the case of
ParkingEye v Somerfield Stores (2011) to be a reasonable charge and not a penalty, by
which the motorist would be contractually bound.


“I conclude that any motorist using the car park would be contractually bound to pay the
charge of £75 if he exceeded the specified time limit and a demand for payment was made
up on him. Whilst he might argue that the charge in question amounted to a penalty and
was therefore irrecoverable, I think he would probably fail in that contention.” (HHJ
Hegarty QC ParkingEye v Somerfield Stores (2011).

4.1 The case of Combined Parking Solutions v Mr Stephen James Thomas (2008)
provides further evidence that a Parking Charge of a certain value – in this case one that
begins at £60 and rises to £85 and £135 respectively – can be considered fair and
reasonable. District Judge Ackroyd found that these amounts could not be considered as






a penalty. Nor could he find that it was a disproportionately high sum in compensation.
This was upheld by Judge John Robins who ruled that a Parking Charge of £135 was not
unreasonable, being in line with the BPA Code of Practice. Instead he found that it
escalated in accordance with the warnings given and constituted a reasonable charge.
(Combined Parking Solutions v Blackburn [October 2007]).


4.2 Furthermore the figure of £100 has been endorsed as a reasonable upper level of
charging across the industry and both the Parking Charge amounts and the reduction of
40% for early payment within 14 days were prescribed and approved by the British
Parking Association in consultation with the Department for Transport in 2012.


4.3 In Combined Parking Solutions v Dorrington (2012), the Judge stated

“The defendant said to me that there was no loss at all the to client in him parking there. I
do not agree with that because if people keep parking on land over some period of time, the
rights over that land can accrue and it is very important for owners of land to make sure
that those rights do not accrue, as they could lose interest in their land. That alone is a
good and valid reason to stop someone from parking on that lad because, quite simply, if he
had parked there loss could at some point have accrued to the owner.”

4.4 ParkingEye does not believe that the terms, set out by ParkingEye in conjunction
with the landholder, are unfair. However, if the defendant believed them to be, he or she
should not have parked in the car park.


4.5 ParkingEye does not believe that its Parking Charges are extravagant and
unconscionable. Furthermore the finding of Lord Justice Colman in Lordsvale Finance v
Bank of Zambia (1996) has since been found to be more instructive. Lord Justice Manse
in the case of Cine Bes Filmcilik Ve Yapimcilik & Anor. V United International Pictures
& Ors (2003) stated,

“I have also found valuable Colman J's further observation in Lordsvale at pp. 763G –
764a, which indicate that a dichotomy between a genuine pre-estimate of damages and a
penalty does not necessarily cover all the possibilities. There are clauses which may
operate on breach, but which fall into neither category, and they may be commercially
perfectly justifiable.”

4.6 In ParkingEye Ltd. V Kevin Shelley, Circuit Judge Dodd found, on a balance of
probabilities, it was more likely that the dominant purpose of the Parking Charge was to
provide for regulation of the car park area.


4.7 ParkingEye have instructed Barrister Johnathan Kirk QC to give his opinion on
the matter of pre-estimate of loss. He has stated that, “the burden of proving that the
fixed charge amounted to a penalty would be upon the motorist,” that ParkingEye
should, “document clearly an attempt to pre-estimate the loss occasioned”, and that,
“the Courts have recognised that this can be 'rough and ready' and will not be defeated
because it is not absolutely accurate. It may be possible to achieve a global figure
across the business.” This then is what we provide here.


4.8 This was supported in Mayhook v National Car Parks and Fuller (2012). Here
the Judge stated “I do not find that this is a penalty. I think it is NCP doing its best in a
very difficult field genuinely to pre-estimate loss.”


4.9 It must therefore be noted that this is a very difficult industry in which to
determine a completely accurate pre-estimate of loss. This will depend both on losses to



ParkingEye, and on the potential losses to the landholder, which will vary depending on
the time of day, the day of the week and even upon the weather.


4.10 We have calculated the outstanding Parking Charge amount as a genuine pre-
estimate of loss as we incur significant costs in managing this car park to ensure
motorists comply with the stated terms and conditions and to follow up any breaches of
these. These costs include (but are not restricted to);


4.11 Erection and maintenance of the site signage, installation, monitoring and
maintenance of the Automatic Number Plate Recognition systems, employment of
office-based administrative staff, membership and other fees required to manage the
business effectively including those paid to the BPA, DVLA and ICO, general costs
including stationery, postage etc.


4.12 This sum, and the calculations which have been made in setting it, has been
approved and agreed by the landholder. This sum was also clearly laid out on the
signage at the site and, by remaining on site, we contend that the motorist has accepted
all of the prevailing terms and conditions of that contract, including the charges for
breach of contract. Furthermore, there is commercial justification for the charges, and
the charges were approved and prescribed by the British Parking Association and the
Department for Transport in 2012.


4.13 Here, ParkingEye has focused on its losses, although, as noted above, there are
also significant losses incurred by the landholder.


4.14 The average payment by motorists who have been issued with a Parking Charge
by ParkingEye is circa £63. Circa 84% of this payment (circa £53) covers ParkingEye's
costs. This information has been taken from ParkingEye's company accounts and these
can be provided to the court if requested.


4.15 ParkingEye is required to offer a 40% reduction to motorists for early payment
within 14 days. Therefore, this reduced amount needs to be greater than or equal to £53
in order for ParkingEye to operate as a business. Therefore, the upper amount of the
charge needs to be at the level outlined below. Furthermore, the amount of £100 was
approved and prescribed by the British Parking Association in consultation with the
Department of Transport in 2012. Therefore, the full amount of the Parking Charge,
which is an enforceable charge levied for breach of contract, is £100. The reduced
amount for early payment is £60.


4.16 ParkingEye accepts payment of the reduced amount at many stages of its appeal
process, including when a motorist who has appealed to ParkingEye is given the
opportunity of appealing to the Parking On Private Land Appeals (POPLA) service. It is
only if a defendant ignores all ParkingEye correspondence, or loses an appeal at
POPLA, that the charge will be increased to the higher amount. At this stage,
ParkingEye will have incurred further costs, and this increase is in line with BPA
regulations and the terms and conditions set out on the signage. If legal proceedings are
entered into, this amount will rise accordingly.


4.17 In ParkingEye Ltd v Kevin Shelley (2013), Circuit Judge Dodd adhered to the
finding of Lord Justice Colman in Lordsvale Finance v Bank of Zambia (1996) QB 752,
which states,




“whether a provision is to be treated as a penalty is matter of construction to be resolved by
asking whether at the time the contract was entered into the predominant contractual
function of the provision was to deter a party from breaking the contract or to compensate
the innocent party for breach . . . deduced by comparing the amount that would be payable
on breach with the loss that might be sustained if breach occurred”.

4.18 This follows the traditional definition of Lord Dunedin in the case of Dunlop in
1915. However, at 763g and following it continues,

“the jurisdiction in relation to penalty clauses is concerned not primarily with the
enforcement of inoffensive liquidated damages clauses but rather with protection against the
effect of penalty clauses. There would therefore seem to be no reason in principle why a
contractual provision the effect of which was to increase the consideration payable under an
executory contract upon the happening of a default should be struck down as a penalty if the
increase could in the circumstances be explained as commercially justifiable, provided
always that its dominant purpose was not to deter the other party from breach.”

4.19 This description was approved by Lord Justice Manse in the case of Cine Bes
Filmcilik Ve Yapimcilik & Anor. V United International Pictures & Ors (2003) EWCA
Civ 1669 in which he stated,


“I have also found valuable Colman J's further observation in Lordsvale at pp. 763G –
764a, which indicate that a dichotomy between a genuine pre-estimate of damages and a
penalty does not necessarily cover all the possibilities. There are clauses which may
operate on breach, but which fall into neither category, and they may be commercially
perfectly justifiable.”

4.20 Circuit Judge Dodd found that the key issue was not whether or not the charge
was a pre-estimate of loss; but whether the purpose of the Parking Charge is to deter
breach, or if the dominant purpose is commercially justified. We strongly argue that
there is commercial justification for the charges. The Judge found that, on the balance of
probabilities, it was more likely that the dominant purpose was to provide for regulation
of the car park area. He also stated that it was not common for the courts to find a
penalty within a contract. He stated that a breakdown of loss was not required, as the
contract was formed on its own terms.


4.21 In Cavendish Square Holdings v El Makdessi (2012) it was stated,

“I am not persuaded that Clause 5.6 is a penalty clause, the onus being upon the Defendant:

i) it serves a commercial purpose.

ii) I am not satisfied that it's purpose is to deter.

However, the reality is that, in the modern approach to the concept of penalty
discussed above, there is no longer the need for the dichotomy between liquidated
damages and genuine pre-estimate of loss, and so the relevant questions seem to me
to be simply:-

i) was there a commercial justification?

4.22 ParkingEye firmly believes that its charges are fair and reasonable. There is
commercial justification for the charges, which means that the charges cannot be
considered penalties (see E-Nik v Dept for Communities (2012) and Cadogan Petroleum
Holdings Ltd v Global Process Systems LLC (2013)). Private management of car parks
is commercially necessary for landholders. They have a right to manage their private





land as they see fit and allow motorists to use this land for parking under certain terms
and conditions. The contracts, and its clauses, are necessary to prevent abuse of private
land. This is commercially necessary as the landholder needs to manage their land in
order to ensure that their business can run successfully. The terms and conditions of
parking on private land are set out in consultation and conjunction with the landholder,
and it is the obligation of the motorist to comply with these when they park in the car
park. ParkingEye does not believe that the terms, set out by the landholder, are unfair.
However, if the defendant believed them to be, they should not have parked in the car
park.

5 ParkingEye does not believe that the contract is unfair. In Combined Parking Solutions v
Dorrington (2012), it was found that the contract was fair. The Judge stated,


“I am satisfied that this is a contract freely entered into by the defendant. An offer was
made by the owners of the land that if someone to park there they could, subject to charge.
That offer was accepted by the defendant when he parked there. There was consideration
on both sides of parking by the defendant and the sum of money that the claimant was
entitled to expect and, because of the way it was set up, because it was at arm's length,
because there were formal legal notices there, there was clearly an intention to create legal
relations, and the law simply holds the defendant to that contract.”

5.1 The Judge also referred to the case of Lord Roskill Export Credits v UOP,

“It is not and never has been for the court to relieve a party from the consequences of what
may be in the event proved to be erroneous or possibly even a commercially imprudent
bargain.”

5.2 It is therefore ParkingEye's strong belief that this contract is not unfair. The
driver was made aware of the terms and conditions of parking, in keeping with the
British Parking Association regulations. Having entered the contract, the defendant
cannot now decide that they do not wish to be bound by it. The contract was presented
to the driver and was entered into freely. The contract did not cause a significant
imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations. The landholder was obliged to provide
managed parking space while the motorist was obliged not to break the terms and
conditions of parking laid down by ParkingEye in conjunction with the landholder.
ParkingEye does not believe that these terms are unfair. However, if the driver believed
them to be, they should not have parked in the car park.


5.3 In ParkingEye Ltd v Kevin Shelley (2013), Circuit Judge Dodd found that, on
private land, the landholder is entitled to set out terms and conditions, subject to law, and
that these are fully enforceable.


5.4 All of our correspondence sent to the defendant has clearly outlined the reasons
for the claim, being due to an overstay of the max stay time on site. All this information
has subsequently been provided to the defendant in the particulars of claim, which also
included an image of the sign, to evidence the terms and conditions that were broken.


5.5 ParkingEye would also like to add that on the reverse of all correspondence sent
to the defendant, ParkingEye has stated that all appeals should be put in writing and sent
to ParkingEye within 28 days. ParkingEye believes that the defendant broke the terms
and conditions of parking and that therefore they are required to pay the outstanding
charge. However, had the defendant corresponded with us initially, as requested,
ParkingEye believes it could have answered many of the defendant's points directly and
resolved the matter without having to issue court proceedings. However, as we have had
no correspondence whatsoever from the defendant, we have had no choice but to enter
into legal proceedings, and have incurred further costs in pursuing this matter (see
attached letter).


5.6 Please note that, according to Civil Procedure Rules 1998, a document, other
than a claim form, which is sent by First Class Post, shall be deemed to be served on the
second day after it was posted, left with, delivered to or collected by the relevant service
provider provided that day is a business day; or if not, the next business day after that.


5.7 ParkingEye would also like to state that this defence is a standard, generic
defence, distributed on online forums to motorists attempting to avoid paying Parking
Charges and that we receive many near identical defences.






WITNESS STATEMENT

On behalf of XXXXXXXXXXX Ltd I can confirm that:

1.The site is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


2.The Landowner is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


3.XXXXXXXXX is the duly authorised managing agent, acting on behalf of (2) in this regard


4.The Operator Is ParkingEye Ltd.


5.The Operator has written authority from the Landowner to undertake parking management,
control and enforcement at the site, under contract.


6.The Operator had authority to issue the attached Parking Charge, under this written
agreement.


7.The Operator is authorised by the Landowner to issue parking charge notices where vehicles
are parked on the site in a manner not permitted under the terms and conditions of parking.


8.The terms and conditions are as clearly set out on signage at the site and, where applicable,
with any permit or dispensation for use at the site.


9.The issue of parking charge notices is subject to the agree criteria and exemptions, as also
clearly set out on signage at the site and, where applicable, with any permit or dispensation
for use at the site.


10.The Operator is authorised to issue a parking charge notice for breach of any of the terms
and conditions referred to above.


11.The Operator is authorised by the Landowner to pursue the outstanding parking charges in
accordance with the British Parking Association Approved Operator Scheme Code of
Practice.




I confirm that I am authorised to make this statement on behalf of the Landowner and that the above
information is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Signature: XXXXXXXXXX

Name: XXXXXXXXXXX

Position: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Date: 30/08/2013

Sweetrevenge

Here is the text of my defence - as I say, I think I should have said I never saw the signs because of where I parked and the high position of the signs on the lampposts, but didn't. Is it to late to add this?

1. It is admitted that Defendant is the owner of vehicle registration no. XXXXXXXXXXX


2. It is admitted that the Defendant parked in XXXXXXXXXXXXXX at the times mentioned in the Particulars.

3. It is denied that the Claimant entered into a contract with the Defendant. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the carpark is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. The proper Claimant is the landowner.

4. Alternatively, even if there was a contract, the provision requiring payment of £100 is an unenforceable penalty clause. Following Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v Selfridge & Co Ltd [1915] AC 847, clauses designed to punish a party for breach of contract may only be upheld if they represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The provision is a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss for the following reasons: (a) as the Claimant is not the landowner and suffers no loss whatsoever as a result of a parking overstay; (b) the amount claimed is evidently disproportionate to any loss suffered by the Claimant; (c) the penalty bears no relation to the circumstances because it remains the same no matter whether a motorist overstays by ten seconds or ten years.


5. Further and alternatively, the provision requiring payment of £100 is unenforceable as an unfair term contrary to Regulation 5 of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. This is a term which falls within Schedule 1, paragraph (e) of the Regulations being a term "requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation". The term was not individually negotiated and causes a significant imbalance in the parties' respective rights and obligations, because the charge is heavily disproportionate in respect of a short overstay and is imposed even where consumers are legitimately using the carpark for its designated purpose.


6. Save as expressly mentioned above, the Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

The_Slithy_Tove

If this gets to a courtroom, which, knowing PE, is quite possible, you MUST kick off by questioning the "right of audience" of whoever is representing PE. This person will likely be an agency solicitor, and many times removed from the landowner.

Go to pepipoo.com and search on "right of audience". This issue has been coming up quite a bit there, driven by one or two keen people there. Also this thread: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4755088

Bargeboat

I am not sure whether this is a valid point or merely an observation but my wife and I have used that car park for a long time and have never turned away because the car park is full, even on a Saturday morning / lunch time. My point is that if people can park at any time then what loss can those that stay over the two hours be causing.

Another point is that the cameras are checking each and every car that arrives and leaves the car park. That is not checking for loss but is in place to trigger a charge.

Since my parking charge arrived last week, I have asked numerous people at work and in my family if they were aware that there was a two hour limit on this car park or that there was potential for a £100 charge. Nobody was aware of this which suggests that the signage is inadequate.

Another point about signage - Pay and display car parks always display their signs at eye level and it is very difficult to miss them. This does not compare well with PE's signs. Maybe the signs should be on the shop doorways.

Sweetrevenge

Hi and thanks Slithy and Bargeboat,

looking into right of audience etc., thanks for the pointers.

Also, BB, I know! Those signs are really high. When I drove in I was checking other vehicle and pedestrian movements, I certainly didn't look up at the signs 8 foot or whatever high. I parked right at the back of the fast food chain restaurant and walked straight off to chapel lane. I never even saw a sign.

I will start looking (a little late I know) into whether planning permission is in place for these signs and whether they are allowed to put a 2 hour limit on parking via the local borough council. Does anyone know how I can request this information?

thanks again, for all the support

esmerobbo

4:14 Is an interesting statement that £53 covers PE's costs and it is entered into their accounts. So it would be claimed as business running costs or written off against any loss!

It would be interesting to see a set of PE's detailed accounts.

Everyone of their persuasive and precedent cases could easily be rebuked by an opposite opinion.

If I was the Judge I don't think I would take too kindly to my decision being persuaded by a lot of their argument, except that from a higher court.

I would love to see the Johnathon Kirk QC opinion in full, and if they are quoting it I would request a sight of it.

Guys_Dad

you can counter with Judge McIlwaine's comments about make up of costs in the Ibbotson case where he rejected the inclusion of operating costs such as the PPC is including. Do a search and the transcript is available in full.

Stroma

Here's the link for that

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=16231)