Thoughts on this situation? (Re training, wages dropped - wasnt supposed to)

Kayalana99

Hiya,

Afaird this is for my Mum but pretty sure I've asked enough questions to know the in's and outs of it.

First the terms of employment as stated on the NHS website (so shes told me as all this information is what shes said) is that when a nurse retrains that their pay should be protected at the band level with agreement from the manger.

So my Mum retrains to me a midwife and her and the retraining students are all told that they have to go down wage bands as they are now students. She was told that it was the norm.

(When I say Bands nhs do things like Band A wage Band B wage...etc so basicly lower pay)

Fast forward 4 years later and she gets a random call from one of her friends who studied with her that she has now retrained again as a health vistor and when she started training expected to go on the lower wage again, she was told this was not right and on futher questioning was back paid 2-3k as she should never of been on a lower wage bracket.

So basicly someone doing the same thing at same time as my Mum has been given this back payment so obvouisly my Mum is thinking she would be entitled to it along with the others who were retraining.... she has spent the last year being pushed from pilar to post to differnert people no one has actally said she isn't entitled to it or that she is entitled to it but its all 'we get back to you'..its been passed to XXX etc...

So she got her union invovled (about 2 months ago at a guess)and turns out shes abit useless but so far my Mum is waiting for someone from payroll to contact her as thats what the unions last update was (although that was now 2-3 weeks ago!)

Just to add, the midwifes who retrain now are also 'pay protected' and are recieving the same band of pay when they retrain so it seems that everyone is getting this apart from her and the few that retrained when she did (bare in mind some would of been newly trained so it would of been right that some students were on the lower wage at time)

Thanks for reading so far, is the bolded clause going to be enough if she now starts court proceeds or at least threats them to that it would be thrown out? Does it matter that other people have got the back payment being in same circumstance or is it simply that its one thing for one and one for another and theirs no way of using that as prove she should of got paid the full wage?

She reckons they would end up back paying her about 5k so taking tax off she would be looking at about 3k or so which is alot for her.

Oh and she did ask her union rep if she should get a solictor invovled and her reply was a sarcastic ' I am your solictor ' joke reply? I suppose?

cr1mson

Kayalana99 wrote: »

Hiya,

is that when a nurse retrains that their pay should be protected at the band level with agreement from the manger.

Did the manager agree? I am sure that someone more knowledgeable will reply but at face value if her manager didn't agree then she is on a hiding to nothing as presumably they will just say that there was no agreement. Unless the reason for the lack of agreement was a protected characteristic I don't see how she can pursue this.

Kayalana99

Well basicly the 'manager' was never asked, it was simply told thats what their wage would be as they are now students and it was the norm it was never considered that they were a higher wage band before just that they were now on this band for this job role... so its kind of hard to answar that one...yet someone has had it back paid who was working with her at same time...

But I personally would think that wouldn't be enough for a court case that 'shes got that why havn't I got it' kind of thing...or maybe thats exactly the prove she needs that someone in exact same postion has been back paid so they have accepted they were in the wrong by not protecting her pay as she puts it..

Tenyearstogo

There's no such thing as Nhs terms of employment, they vary between Trusts.

What did your mum retrain as? What was her grade previously and whilst doing the re-training? What educational levels were her qualifications?

I don't think there are any set rules.

Kayalana99

Nurse to midwife, afaird when I say terms of employment its what she found on the website itself when she did research into it, afaird I have been unable to locate it thu google myself.

I am unsure of the other details I am afaird.

jacques_chirac

Tenyearstogo wrote: »

There's no such thing as Nhs terms of employment, they vary between Trusts.

What did your mum retrain as? What was her grade previously and whilst doing the re-training? What educational levels were her qualifications?

I don't think there are any set rules.

You're wrong - there are standard terms and conditions under A4C. In this regard, the handbook states:

Career development moves
6.30 Where a member of staff moves to another job in the NHS covered by this agreement, where the necessary arrangements to support the operation of the gateways are in place, pay progression will normally depend on demonstrating the knowledge and skills specified in the KSF outline for the post, within the first twelve months of appointment.
6.31 Where, however, an individual re-trains in a different area of work, for wider service or operational reasons, with the explicit agreement of the employer concerned, their existing level of pay should be protected. Once protection is agreed, it may not be withdrawn until the person concerned has had a reasonable opportunity to complete their re-training
and progress to a point where pay protection is no longer required. Explicit employer agreement in this context cannot, however, be deemed to have been given solely because the employer has agreed to re-employ someone following redundancy.

Hence protection only applies where it is expressly agreed by the employer.

Tenyearstogo

In my experience, no matter what grade a nurse was prior to midwifery training, she would be on a Band 5 for the training.

Wages are usually only held at a level if the training is a secondment.

Tenyearstogo

jacques_chirac wrote: »

You're wrong - there are standard terms and conditions under A4C. In this regard, the handbook states:



Hence protection only applies where it is expressly agreed by the employer.

Sorry, I realise A4C is the same, I meant an individual T&C contract. I didn't explain myself well.

Kayalana99

6.31 Where, however, an individual re-trains in a different area of work, for wider service or operational reasons, with the explicit agreement of the employer concerned, their existing level of pay should be protected.

It doesn't sound like she has a court case then but might still get somewhere dealing with her employer direct since thats what her friend did(although she had the support of the people she was working for at time which without really knowing - is probally why it went through so fast)

It does sound by looking at it , she should of had her pay protected..but they have included a get out clause as the actal sentence without the added bit is that it should be protected...but obvouisly by adding that in they have protected themselfs against cases like this - or cases when someone goes off to retrain in areas they are not happy with giving them the same wage band.

I guess all she can do is keep chasing the employer and if they turn round and say no their isn't much she can do... but no harm in trying?

Dunroamin

Why did your mother retrain, that also seems to be important from the link.

notanewuser

jacques_chirac wrote: »

Hence protection only applies where it is expressly agreed by the employer.

I read that as protection only applies where the employer expressly approves the retraining.

So did the employer want your mum to retrain, OP, or did she want to do it and the employer agreed (happily or under sufferance)?