Direct Debit Guarantee - not worth the paper it's printed on?

joncombe

grumbler wrote: »

Tell Barclays that they are incompetent idiots.

http://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectD...gpayments.aspx

Thank you! Complaint now made to Barlcays as well, quoting this page. Just what I was looking for.

grumbler

To be fair to Barclays, they are idiots, but it wasn't their fault.
In fact they are victim of the system designed by some other idiots. There is no way they can check whether the new DD was actually authorised by you.

So, the main addresses for complaining are Npower, Ofgen (repeated incorrect billing) and, possibly, FOS (abuse of DD system by Npower).

YorkshireBoy

BMN wrote: »

You can claim back from the bank the full amount (and the full amount only) from an incorrect direct debit, as you have already done.

The Payment Services Regulations 2009 provide for consequential losses to be paid by your bank, as well as the incorrectly taken DD value.

By consequential losses I mean overdraft fees, unauthorised overdraft fees, and any debit interest charged, must all be reimbursed by your bank.

Based on my understanding of the regulations (specifically Reg 61), they must also correct any negative information they (the bank) have supplied to the CRAs as a direct result of the incident.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/pdfs/uksi_20090209_en.pdf (Specifically, but not limited to, Reg 55 through 67)

YorkshireBoy

grumbler wrote: »

To be fair to Barclays, they are idiots, but it wasn't their fault.
In fact they are victims of the system designed by some other idiots. There is no way they can check whether the new DD was actually authorised by you.

Yes there is.

In making the indemnity claim on NPower, NPower have to provide Barclays with a copy of the mandate/paper trail/telephone record relating to the customer setting up and authorising the DD. If they cannot do this, they are bound by the scheme rules to immediately reimburse Barclays, ie indemnify them, without further ado.

Of course NPower won't be able to do this, if, as the OP says, they've set up a new DD with a new reference.


Source: http://www.bacs.co.uk/Bacs/Businesses/FAQ/Pages/AUDDIS.aspx

grumbler

I meant they they couldn't check this when the DD was reinstated.
So, the money taken incorrectly wasn't their fault.
So far they have refunded the money and are guilty only of misinforming the customer on the DD rules.

BMN

YorkshireBoy wrote: »

The Payment Services Regulations 2009 provide for consequential losses to be paid by your bank, as well as the incorrectly taken DD value.

By consequential losses I mean overdraft fees, unauthorised overdraft fees, and any debit interest charged, must all be reimbursed by your bank.

Based on my understanding of the regulations (specifically Reg 61), they must also correct any negative information they (the bank) have supplied to the CRAs as a direct result of the incident.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/pdfs/uksi_20090209_en.pdf (Specifically, but not limited to, Reg 55 through 67)

Yes, you are correct.

I was actually referring to the amount taken in the direct debit though. If £10 more than you had agreed with a company was taken in a direct debit then the bank couldn't refund just the £10 difference it would have to be the whole amount.

pqrdef

The main reason the DD guarantee is worthless is that Barclays will now try to get its money back from Npower, and if Npower say the charge was correct and they won't return it, Barclays will just debit your account again. They won't act as arbitrator and they won't pay your electricity bill. (Otherwise, so many people would try it on, and the cost to the banks would be appalling.)

In any case, there's nothing in the DD scheme that prevents the customer's contract with the merchant from authorising the merchant to keep re-creating DDs. This is especially likely where having a DD is a term of the contract.

Egg credit cards used to do it, because it was a compulsory T&C of the card that you had to have a DD in place.

Likewise if you're on a monthly DD tariff, it's going to be a term in the small print that you have to maintain a DD. If you don't, they won't just say shucks, look at this, this guy's on a DD tariff and he's gone and killed the DD, the blighter. They'll either re-create it or move you onto the standard tariff. Sounds like they may have already done that once.

joncombe

pqrdef wrote: »

The main reason the DD guarantee is worthless is that Barclays will now try to get its money back from Npower, and if Npower say the charge was correct and they won't return it, Barclays will just debit your account again.

I doubt it. I have had the direct debit removed and a block put on further direct debits from Npower (an OIN block I believe it was).

They won't act as arbitrator and they won't pay your electricity bill. (Otherwise, so many people would try it on, and the cost to the banks would be appalling.)

In this case my original "final" bill was wrong, it didn't even add up. Npower admitted this. Despite this Npower closed the account (saying they could not keep it open because I had switched supplier). You can only switch supplier if there is no debt. The account was in credit, and Npower sent a cheque for the balance. I continued my compaint about the bill being wrong (as the balance from a cancelled bill had been used going forward, resulting in a double charge). They finally agreed for a new bill to be issued. The new bill goes right the way back to Jan 2012, as the bills have been incorrect since then. However the new bill is also incorrect because all the units for both gas and electricity have been charged at the higher rate (I was on a tariff where the first X units were a higher price and lower units a lower price). As a result this bill gave a debit balance. There are also billing errors once more where the units used is incorrect given the start and end readings. Npower have again admitted it is wrong and told me there was a "block" on my account to prevent payment being taken. I also was told if I had stopped the direct debit they couldn't take payment anyway.

In any case, there's nothing in the DD scheme that prevents the customer's contract with the merchant from authorising the merchant to keep re-creating DDs. This is especially likely where having a DD is a term of the contract.

Maybe but that should be a dispute the company issuing the contract and the customer. Companies should not keep adding direct debits back on accounts if people are cancelling them. If it is a condition of an account to have a direct debit and the customer cancels then the company needs to take it up with the customer not just debit money from their account.

Likewise if you're on a monthly DD tariff, it's going to be a term in the small print that you have to maintain a DD. If you don't, they won't just say shucks, look at this, this guy's on a DD tariff and he's gone and killed the DD, the blighter. They'll either re-create it or move you onto the standard tariff. Sounds like they may have already done that once.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that "they may have already done that once", but I have not been switched to a standard tariff at all at any time. This is not about missing a regular and agreed monthly payment. The account was closed in credit. I switched suppliers and the account was closed with a credit balance (which was refunded). Npower ended the contract and closed the account. I am no longer supplied by them. This is simply a dispute about the final bill being wrong and their incorrect attempts to cancel it. I'm not trying to avoid paying a monthly direct debit to Npower because I'm no longer a customer of theirs (thankfully!)

jonesMUFCforever

pqrdef wrote: »

The main reason the DD guarantee is worthless is that Barclays will now try to get its money back from Npower, and if Npower say the charge was correct and they won't return it, Barclays will just debit your account again. They won't act as arbitrator and they won't pay your electricity bill. (Otherwise, so many people would try it on, and the cost to the banks would be appalling.)

In any case, there's nothing in the DD scheme that prevents the customer's contract with the merchant from authorising the merchant to keep re-creating DDs. This is especially likely where having a DD is a term of the contract.

Egg credit cards used to do it, because it was a compulsory T&C of the card that you had to have a DD in place.

Likewise if you're on a monthly DD tariff, it's going to be a term in the small print that you have to maintain a DD. If you don't, they won't just say shucks, look at this, this guy's on a DD tariff and he's gone and killed the DD, the blighter. They'll either re-create it or move you onto the standard tariff. Sounds like they may have already done that once.

First paragragh = 100% wrong.
Once the D/D is reversed then the energy company's account will be debited back.
If you owe the money then they will chase you for it but not by D/D.

innovate

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

First paragragh = 100% wrong.
If you owe the money then they will chase you for it but not by D/D.

Well they did according to the OP.
But they didn't do so with the account holder's approval. Therefore they will not be able to prove to the bank they had approval. Therefore the bank has no problem recalling the money from npower.

If npower did this sort of thing lots of times, they'd risk getting struck off the DD authorised companies list.

It's most likely a badly educated and misinformed npower employee who is causing the havoc for the OP. Thus my earlier suggestion the OP should go straight back to npower's Exec complaints team.