!!Why it is all absurd and we should wake up!!

chucky

dryhat wrote: »

Whatever.
You got the point and are now just being silly.

And by the way, in 1972 there was another virtual currency in common use ...........

luncheon vouchers

It looks like Google are in on the racket to keep Bitcoin quiet. They've got lots of pages of stories of fraudulent Bitcoin transactions.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bitcoin&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&q=bitcoin+fraud

antrobus

boltneck123 wrote: »

Antrobus,

From looking at your posts, you seem to have made it clear that you support the current system and see nothing wrong with it. ....

Then clearly you misunderstand.

boltneck123 wrote: »

....The videos and information on the positive money website present an argument as to why the current system is wrong.

Please provide me with information as to why you disagree with them and explain how you perceive the system to work. I thought this was a debate section? Each side should present evidence for their argument, should they not?

Antrobus, please tell me how money works, if I am naive then forgive me, please. I am trying to make sense of how our economy works, all you offer is snide remarks. If you don't want to see yet another fractional-reserve, money isn't real thread, then don't read it.

Ah, so you understand enough to know that this is just "another fractional-reserve, money isn't real thread".:)

OK try this.

How to double the money supply in one easy lesson.

John has 1,000 coins and he lends them to Michael. Michael spends his 1,000 coins buying a car from David. Now both David and John believe that they have 1,000 coins. Which is twice as many coins as we started with.

Note that;

(1) it doesn't matter what you call the coins concerned. They can be dollars, pounds, bitcoins, or flaming weasels, it's all the same.
(2) there's no way you can stop this process from happening unless you stop lending
(3) it happens even if there are no banks involved

boltneck123

Antrobus,

I have misunderstood? So you are not in favor of the current system?

Do you support the current system yes or no? Let us clear up my apparent misunderstanding of your stance.

To be perfectly honest I don't know how to classify this thread, if you wish to refer to it as a "fractional-reserve, money isn't real thread" then go ahead. I just used your words to identify the thread to advise you not to read it. Call it "not another fairies make money from thin air thread" if you like. I just want to discuss perceptions, beliefs and opinions of how the current system works, you don't have to take any terminologies from the current system to make up the threads unofficial title.

---

Your example is nice.

Yes David now has 1000 coins because he sold his car to Michael who borrowed them off of John; but John has 1000 coins less, because he lent them to Michael.

Michael is going to pay John back, so yes John and David both end up with 1000 coins, John will even have a bit of interest, fantastic .

However, for Michael to be able to pay John back to avoid default and potentially prison - he needs to get 1000 coins from somewhere. For the sake of simplicity within this example, lets say there is actually only 1000 coins in existence and three people, where does Michael get another 1000 coins to pay back John? (John will only accept coins and nothing else).

Yes now I am play devils advocate, but we all do at some point.

CLAPTON

boltneck123 wrote: »

Antrobus,

I have misunderstood? So you are not in favor of the current system?

Do you support the current system yes or no? Let us clear up my apparent misunderstanding of your stance.

To be perfectly honest I don't know how to classify this thread, if you wish to refer to it as a "fractional-reserve, money isn't real thread" then go ahead. I just used your words to identify the thread to advise you not to read it. Call it "not another fairies make money from thin air thread" if you like. I just want to discuss perceptions, beliefs and opinions of how the current system works, you don't have to take any terminologies from the current system to make up the threads unofficial title.

---

Your example is nice.

Yes David now has 1000 coins because he sold his car to Michael who borrowed them off of John; but John has 1000 coins less, because he lent them to Michael.

Michael is going to pay John back, so yes John and David both end up with 1000 coins, John will even have a bit of interest, fantastic .

However, for Michael to be able to pay John back to avoid default and potentially prison - he needs to get 1000 coins from somewhere. For the sake of simplicity within this example, lets say there is actually only 1000 coins in existence and three people, where does Michael get another 1000 coins to pay back John? (John will only accept coins and nothing else).

Yes now I am play devils advocate, but we all do at some point.

this is a fractional banking system with a reserve ratio of zero

boltneck123

Thank you for that Clapton, yes John has no money left (even if he were a bank, not just an individual giving a loan). A reserve ratio of 0, is hardly a reserve, since reserve suggests something to be kept to one side, in all fairness (but that is not important).

Again, referring to my scenario (based on Antrobus's example), where does Michael get another 1000 coins to pay John back?

CLAPTON

boltneck123 wrote: »

Thank you for that Clapton, yes John has no money left (even if he were a bank, not just an individual giving a loan). A reserve ratio of 0, is hardly a reserve, since reserve suggests something to be kept to one side, in all fairness (but that is not important).

Again, referring to my scenario, where does Michael get another 1000 coins to pay John back?

on reflection, it isn't a banking system at all or if it is we don't know the origin of the 'money'

we don't have enough information about the system

antrobus

CLAPTON wrote: »

this is a fractional banking system with a reserve ratio of zero

Correct. Which is pretty much what we have at the moment.

boltneck123 wrote: »

...Again, referring to my scenario (based on Antrobus's example), where does Michael get another 1000 coins to pay John back?

Where does anybody get the money to pay back a loan? They engage in economic activity, of course. Get a job, start a business, that sort of thing.:)

boltneck123

No it isn't an banking system, I am not referring to as one. It is just meant to represent the system in its absolute simplest form, based on that of Antrobus. Often looking at something in its simplest form can enable us to find flaws and faults.

Would you like me to make it a bank system...? Ok.

Jonn has 1000 coins and decides to set up a bank called "John's Bank". His first customer through the door is Michael, John is so excited about this that he approves a loan for 1000 coins (this is subsequently all that he has and now the bank has nothing in it, right? Because banks don't just make money from thin air do they?).

Michael goes over to David's and promptly buys the car for 1000 coins. Now, David doesn't trust John's new Bank and decides that he thinks the money is better off in his safe and there it shall remain, he does not need to pay out anything. He grows his own food, produces his on energy and has all the tools and equipment he will ever need to survive (all be it not in luxury) for the foreseeable future.

Michael is aware that he needs to pay up to John's Bank, but since there is now no money in the economy her cant get any to pay back John. Where does he get it?

Thrugelmir

dryhat wrote: »

Bitcoin is indeed revolutionary. It is the first time that individuals anywhere in the world have been able to carry out anonymous, fast, secure and virtually free transactions in a currency outside of the control of a third party.

This was never possible before Bitcoin

Bartering has a few years head start.

dryhat

chucky wrote: »

It looks like Google are in on the racket to keep Bitcoin quiet. They've got lots of pages of stories of fraudulent Bitcoin transactions.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bitcoin&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&q=bitcoin+fraud

That's brilliant.

You take the p155 out of a poster who links to a youtube video as "evidence" of his beliefs and then you post a google search of "bitcoin+fraud" to try to support your stance.

You couldn't make this up.