A University Education is still free (plus grants) in EU - How can we fix it in UK?

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

There's a lot of talk about what is "doable" in terms of surviving on SFE loans and associated maintenance grants.

I think we are looking at the problem from the wrong end of the telescope and a complete rethink is urgently required before we demoralise a whole generation.

It's what we might mean by "doable" that is frightening. No-one has told the target audience that they will be borrowing a stupid amount of money and entering into such an awful deferred contract like they were voluntarily chaining themselves to a rail on a slave boat with no idea where it will land or who will take them.

So few people can see it, because it's the government scheme so they must know what they are doing. The only people needing to think twice or think hard about the deal, because there is always a choice - as a number of Herberts are constantly fond of telling us - are the few who have spotted it for what it is, eh?

Unless you are A grade at Maths, you are very unlikely to be able to play around with the interest ramifications for example like I did with that rudimentary spreadsheet I built myself last night impatient for someone to confirm the necessary rates and effective dates. Instead the government message is "don't worry about it - most people may never pay it off - it's a tax". I would be so ashamed if I was a member of the government to have introduced it when so many other groups in society should clearly have been hit very very firmly first with austerity level taxes. Not enough creative thinking by half amongst those posh boys other than how to start a "them and us" argument and cash in politically on the fallout.

Let's take wealthy individuals who buy smart cars, for example. There are a very great number of them from quite a broad spectrum within our society. How many blokes of any income group can resist the latest episode of Top Gear when it appears on their screens? Britain may not make too many flash cars these days, but we surely love them and are prepared to throw all logic away to own something the neighbours would envy. And girls are not immune either - they use them as status symbols too.

The most common status symbol of wealth in the western world is not a mansion, but an OTT motor, be it a Chelsea Tractor, or a specially badged Audi, BM or Merc. or at a more common level, just a newish shiney Ford Focus will do the trick amongst many peer groups.

I have nothing against these displays of wealth, but think how much income the government could derive fast if they introduced a whopping car tax which didn't just tinker, but effectively doubled the price of the car, and also was charged to foreign cars on our roads for more than two weeks upon threat of confiscation of the vehicle until collection of an import tax equivalent to the difference between the price paid in the home country and the typical revised UK market price including the new tax.

Do you think such an idea sounds crazy? I think it may have been happening for years very successfully indeed in parts of Scandinavia and I think it is not just an also ran type of tax - I believe it to be a seriously large income stream because they devote significant resources to enforcing it in terms of ruthlessly confiscating foreign overstaying vehicles or import scams, and I believe it to be well accepted by all segments of societythat if you want to show you are worthy of driving around in a smarter car than anyone else, then you will pay a very heavy tax for the privilege.

Rich people or wannabes cannot resist buying the smartest cars no matter what the price tag, and young execs will continue to work hard too to finance their dream A3 S-line or A5 or whatever to show off to their mates. If we implemented such a tax we would soon get rid of all the doubtful cars from Eastern Europe that we have on our roads. Scandinavia is much closer to Poland than we are and there are a lot of Poles living and working in Scandinavia, but you won't see anywhere near so many PL plates. They wouldn't bring them for fear of having them recorded in and out of the ports and any that were overstaying the allowed two weeks would be confiscated until tax was paid. They would instead either stop coming or they'd integrate more fully and buy a UK car sooner rather than later.

We could introduce it this taxvery fast I think. It could be made to apply to all vehicles old and new with a well chosen amnesty based on positive profiling by age and make/model perhaps. Do I jest? Seriously, cars are like pet dogs aren't they? Show us the car and we'll soon have a pretty good idea of what sort drives it!

Alternatively a simpler cut-off could be that those who already owned vehicles over say 3 years old (the MOT trigger point?) might be given an amnesty. What they would actually be being given is the opportunity to convert their car into twice as much cash as they might have paid for it last week if they chose to sell the car at the new market price that would naturally follow imposition of the new tax. The tax would immediately increase the price of all new and all second hand vehicles of all ages in this country, and although there would be some hurt initially to hard working middle class who were caught with a big tax bill for their flawless 2 and a half year old metallic green Ford Focus that is never driven in the rain, they could sell it for a natural profit caused by the new "car luxury tax" and downgrade.

This is a tax which very interestingly has a equalising effect on the distribution of wealth which I believe the wealthy or those pretending to be a cut above do not seem to mind. This is because they are proud to make an ostentatious display of their wealth or success. The act of spending all that money is part of the show, and introducing a massive change to the taxation of some 30M cars overnight would surely do serious good to the economy without damaging our car industry because basically we don't really have one that needs any protection from UK government, and without hurting anyone that needed a car for mobility. Disabled would have to be given special treatment, but no-one else needs a new 4WD just because they live in the country when a 10 year old one will do. I am serious. That limited ill thought out nonsense with the government subsidy for buying new cars and cashing in old 10 year old plus cars was just a gimmick. I didn't cash mine in - it's far too good-looking and reliable for the crusher!


Why on earth am I banging on about a car luxury tax in this thread about the dire way we are treating our students? Because we are broke and our tax system is not helping right now and we all know that a significant proportion of our society is quietly getting ever further ahead whilst the majority are going backwards. Never before did the I'm Alright Jacks sneak cosliy from one year to the next - some just can't hep themselves and constantly ask what all the fuss is about and bang on about choice like they actually made one themselves :rotfl:. Consequently there are a lot who are just not paying their proper whack because old style political cronyism protects them every time. I mean how boring is it to hear both the AA and Derek Pickles talking about the poor old motorist like all motorists are poor! We are missing a trick. A large proportion of our motorists - the ones with newish and especially flash cars are not poor at all. Old Derek has missed a trick. Our tax system is blundering on with constant tinkering but no major improvement for the country, just token cashbacks for the masses and no real reform or progress in getting this country into gear again, just constant embarrassments one after the other like reneging on Student Fees, and like a Prime Minister who wasn't capable and still is not capable of organising for our view as a country to be understood on what we think about whoever it is that is messing with poison chemicals and children.


Our present tax system as propounded by this lot is just not capable of contributing to getting us out of this fix. We need something really different to stop the government picking easy targets and hitting the vulnerable like our elderly and of course our university student population.

If we could successfully introduce a massive new tax stream for the government to do some good, then even the numpties we have running it at the moment could not easily fail. And priority number one - they could then afford to truly subsidise higher education for our students again. It is excrutiatingly embarrassing to have to admit that our UK university system has been Americanised/securitized. What an awful admission we all have to make there. And for why? To protect the taxpayer ? Which taxpayers ? All of us? Or just those who read the Sun? There's the broken bit - none of us have any plain idea of who the tax system should be targeting, and of course since the mention of a mansion tax, not one member of government has any new idea how we could get the most wealthy to say they were proud to pay a big whack, have they?

So as usual, successive governments have just given up on creating seriously game-changing ideas and instead, members satisfy themselves with tweaking existing arrangements which they know won't actually make any big difference, sucking up to privateers for selected bits, and turning off the tap on the most important bits of public spending that are required. To this abdicated style of government they all just then add school playground type political spin that lasts no longer than the run up to the next election.

I say let's do something radical with the tax system and become proud to educate our students again. Let's give this idea of a whacking great car luxury tax a go. We've never really tried it at the levels I mention. Sometimes the most outrageous suggestions might well run - look at Kerry's madcap idea yesterday! VAT would still apply too, by the way.

If you could afford a DB9 or a Merc as tested by Jeremy Clarkson, you'd be also be able to afford and probably proud to pay double in the knowledge you were special and you were paying for the privilege.

Stop this deferred loan/lifetime wage slave nonsense and create a real tax that no-one doubts does good including those that pay the most.

A new big money tax like this is what is truly "doable". It is already being done. It is far easier to implement than for example a tax on bankers Rolex watches, or on mansions, because taxes are already well linked to motors and they are standard items which can just as easily be very rapidly rated for a tax like this as they can be for CO2 emissions.


Let's hurry up and do it - I am sick of seeing the students abused like they are being now.

I have dared not return to that spreadsheet I made last night and mentioned in the thread about fee levels and grants for the poorest students - because the numbers were becoming so depressing. many students are doing courses longer than three years of course. The two students in my examples are planning 5 and 4 year courses respectively. I haven't extended the spreadsheet but would not be surprised now to see the amount owed after a 5 year course topping £100,000 if Carney's 7% unemployment figure is reached and interest rates start going up - it is at least a evn chance they might have to anyway and much faster than many people are prepared for.

Please let's not hang this much austerity on our students any more it is shamefully inept of our government to do so, and equally shameful that elements of our society talk about students having a choice in the matter. They don't at 17 and 18. All they have is zero hours retail jobs to look forward to at less than £6 an hour, or alternatively they have the proper thing they have been groomed for at school and in their homes for most of their young lives - a full education to degree level.

Don't make them so obviously into wage slaves before they've even started. That would be exceptionally lazy of us as a country.

agrinnall

Have you thought about taking up voluntary work? You clearly have waaaay too much time on your hands.

Voyager2002

Actually, I think that students in England get a pretty good deal. There are plenty of countries in the world that don't really have a student loans system, so that education is barred to the poor and able. And then there#s the kind of system found in the USA, where loan repayments start shortly after the course ends and take no account of ability to pay.

Yes, public universities in France are free: and the quality of education is precisely what clients pay for it! Most successful French graduates attended the "Grandes Ecoles" which are very far from being free.

atypical

What are you actually saying?

From skimming, seems to me you say government should introduce new taxes or raise existing ones to fund higher education. Nothing new there.

A luxury car tax would raise insignificant amounts vs the cost of HE.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Atypical I am talking about immediately doubling the price of all cars including immediately collecting a tax from owners approximately equal to the existing market value of all UK registered cars up to 3 years old. You don't wish to pay the tax immediately on your car then you must or you must deliver it to an approved dealer before a deadline and the dealer will subtract and collect the tax from the Glass's Guide price and give you the remainder in cash which you can pocket or take your chances and spend in tomorrows revised UK car market.

I would guess the immediate (first year) tax take might be 10% x 30M cars x average market value of £5,000. That gives £15BN immediately plus a new regular annual income stream of perhaps 2% x 30M x average existing new cars purchased in a year value of £15,000 (which if my back of the fag packet is correct would be another £9BN pa).

Finger in the air/back of envelope stuff of course but if the ballparks were anywhere close then how bout them apples?

They'd fill a few holes in the wished for education budgets and we can perhaps then be back on track for education education education?

agrinnall

On second thoughts, perhaps care in the community would be a better option for you as your latest suggestion is clearly deranged.

jackc12

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

Atypical I am talking about immediately doubling the price of all cars including immediately collecting a tax from owners approximately equal to the existing market value of all UK registered cars up to 3 years old. You don't wish to pay the tax immediately on your car then you must or you must deliver it to an approved dealer before a deadline and the dealer will subtract and collect the tax from the Glass's Guide price and give you the remainder in cash which you can pocket or take your chances and spend in tomorrows revised UK car market.

I would guess the immediate (first year) tax take might be 10% x 30M cars x average market value of £5,000. That gives £15BN immediately plus a new regular annual income stream of perhaps 2% x 30M x average existing new cars purchased in a year value of £15,000 (which if my back of the fag packet is correct would be another £9BN pa).

Finger in the air/back of envelope stuff of course but if the ballparks were anywhere close then how bout them apples?

They'd fill a few holes in the wished for education budgets and we can perhaps then be back on track for education education education?

The London riots were started from far less than the government doubling the price of all cars...

Voyager2002

jackc12 wrote: »

The London riots were started from far less than the government doubling the price of all cars...

Yes... However, London is overcrowded; something has to be done about the population problem; a few hundred angry petrol-heads would not be missed and the police need some target practice.

Somerset

atypical wrote: »

What are you actually saying?

He's saying someone else should pay for what he wants ... anyone else .... as long as it's not him. That he finds the prospect of paying his way demoralising.

jamesmorgan

To keep the maths v simple, the new loan scheme means that students will pay approx 10% more tax on incomes over £20K. As approx 50% of the population will be going to uni, roughly the same could be achieved by getting everyone to pay 5% more tax on incomes over £20K (ie introduce a new tax band of 25%).

A quick comparison with other EU countries shows the income tax bands on income over £20K as follows

Germany - 24%
France - 30%
Spain - 28%
Italy - 27%

In other words, many EU countries can achieve 'free' uni education by getting everyone to pay for it. The key question is whether uni education should be paid by those that benefit from it, or whether everyone else should pay for it as well. I am in favour of the former but do understand that there are arguments for the latter.

Uni education is expensive. Playing around with a few luxury taxes won't raise anything like enough money. The only realistic option is a major increase in mainstream taxes.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

I believe the tax I have proposed on cars is indeed a mainstream tax and unless I am terribly mistaken it is of mainstream proportions?

As for it causing riots are you seriously trying to tell me that the same kind of hard worker who chooses to finance an A3 S-line through focussed labour is likely to use it to drive anywhere near a riot let alone take part in it? Such an owner probably avoids tempestuous riotous types like the plague anyway. Now I could understand it a little bit if that owner was a 23 year old who somehow had managed it and his car was less than 3 years old - then my proposal gets implemented and he finds he has to sell his pride and joy to settle the tax bill and goes off on one because his world has collapsed. However, I don't think many of typical riot age are disposed to buy new cars like that until they are a fair bit older and wiser. More likely trouble might occur if that 23 year old was a banker and he found he had to use some of his ill gotten bonus this year to pay the tax bill instead of another Friday night champers binge, he and his mates might decide it was worth going incognito and smashing a few windows to try to kick something off. Really I can't see who would be so upset that they would riot? Upset so that they might vote a government out maybe, but those we have seen riot in the past would be exactly the ones whomight be nodding in agreement that those with money as flaunted on four wheels are exactly the ones who should be taxed heavily if they wish to continue to flaunt it.

Poll tax hit the poorest. My tax hits those who wish to flaunt their individual wealth, no-one else. It rapidly increases the price of all cars including "old bangers" but the exemption for existing owned cars over 3 years old would not be a burden on any owner of such. When they wanted to trade up to another reliable older car then they would receive more for theirs in part exchange.

So who exactly would riot about such a tax and why?


PS It would need a better title than car luxury tax because that does indeed make it sound like fiddling round the edges. The fact is I think if implemented, this would instantly become a mainstream tax. Has anyone got some numbers we can compare? Are my suggested one off take of £15BN and then an immediate £9BN pa well founded and if so how far would that money reach into the necessary higher education budget that we should really be shouldering as taxpayers of a socially astute and developed country? If these numbers are valid and in the necessary ballpark then the beauty of it is that it is not an income tax and evidence of it humming along nicely will be seen under the bonnet of every properly taxed vehicle on every motorway on our roads from Day One. It would not be a hidden tax. It would be flaunted alongside the wealth it taps into. A flash car means "I am proud to be in this car and pay big tax". An old banger means "maybe I am not so wealthy" but I am driving around in a negotiable tax credit which I can cash any time I like by selling this car for twice what I paid for before they brought in the new tax.

PPS Implementing it would be no harder I think than as has been achieved in some countries within our memory who swapped which side of the road they drive at midnight on a designated date. Some central investment and resources would be needed to manage the changeover seamlessly and modify DVLA and HMRC systems, but on the day after implementation the tax element in the inflated value of your car would immediately be on the government's books whether you had already paid it, or it had been exempted. And as I said, if you were amongst the majority of owners (cars over 3 years old) you would not pay anything until you traded up and if you wished to trade down then you would instantly receive a much higher price in the market for selling your car and perhaps switching to using a bike which would be a kind of QE (a tax credit of the element of tax now built into the value of the car you are selling).

I would be grateful if someone could tell me whether the numbers I suggested earlier are big enough for the piurpose.

jamesmorgan's illustration of an income tax hike is probably much better researched than my idea, and looks to add up immediately, but I truly believe mine (well it isn't mine but borrowed from one or two countries in Europe) would be such a novel departure from the norm in UK taxpayers minds that it could gain much better resigned acceptance than what would be seen as a straight imposition of austerity measure in the form of an always unwelcome income tax hike.


Could you education experts remind us how much we need to completely fund UK higher education please?

I have no particular response to those who argue that higher education is the luxury and flash car ownership is the god given right. All I can say is ours is sometimes an upside down world ...