Cynical ploy or reality?

Masomnia

And anyway, the unemployment statistics are done to international standards, so they won't be changing however much the TUC complain.

grizzly1911

Masomnia wrote: »

And anyway, the unemployment statistics are done to international standards, so they won't be changing however much the TUC complain.

As long as statistics line up that is OK then . Didn't Disraeli make an observation about them.

Naf

Masomnia wrote: »

So what are they saying, that all those with 'bad backs' should be looking for work?

Shouldn't they?
There's very few (relatively speaking) conditions which altogether prevent someone from ever working. But many which limit the type/hours of work. IMO, anyone capable of some kind of work should be expected to look for it.

MacMickster

So if we count the unemployed in a different way we will get a different figure?

No 5hit Sherlock!

antrobus

Masomnia wrote: »

You don't have to register as unemployed, they work it out from a survey.

Indeed they do, it's called the Labour Market survey, and it calculates an unemployment figure in accordance with the international standards laid down by the ILO.

wotsthat wrote: »

We already have more than one set of unemployment figures.

It's worth noting that the union rep believes an extra 2.26 million could be added but neglects to comment on whether this 2.26m is increasing or decreasing. The absolute numbers mean little in isolation.

A classic case of trying to compare apples to pears to make a (non) point.

Is there no one at the TUC capable of downloading the Labour Market Survey data set from the ONS website? I guess I'll just have to do it then.:)

The number of those who are economically inactive and 'want a job' has never been much less than 2 million since 1992. The ONS data shows 2,362 for Mar-May 2010, 2,164 for Jul-Sep 2007, and was 2,264 for Apr-Jun 2013. Or to put it another way, if you wanted to include these people as 'unemployed', then there are currently 120,000 fewer of them than when the Coalition took office, and only 100,000 more than at the top of the Brown boom.

Not quite the picture that the TUC want people to see, I imagine.

CLAPTON

as already said there are several ways of measuring the employment and 'unemployment

some examples

1. the difference between the number of people in the employment age range (say 18-65) minus those in work
this of course gives 'high' level of 'unemployment as it includes SAHM, rich playboys, students, the sick, people genuinely looking for work etc

2. unemployment defined by those on JSA

3. NEETS . as measured by those not in employment, education or training; often used to measure youth unemployment


4. unemployed as defined by those actively seeking work

5. then you have to define 'employed' e.g. is 1 hour a week employed?


etc etc




ILO definition

Unemployment is defined as follows in the Resolution concerning statistics of the economically active population, employment, unemployment and underemployment, adopted by the Thirteenth International Conference of Labour Statisticians (Geneva, 1982):


(1) The "unemployed" comprise all persons above a specified age who during the reference period were:
(a)"without work", i.e. were not in paid employment or self-employment, as defined in paragraph 9; (b)"currently available for work", i.e. were available for paid employment or self-employment during the reference period; and (c)"seeking work", i.e. had taken specific steps in a specified reference period to seek paid employment or self-employment. The specific steps may include registration at a public or private employment exchange; application to employers; checking at worksites, farms, factory gates, market or other assembly places; placing or answering newspaper advertisements; seeking assistance of friends or relatives; looking for land, building, machinery or equipment to establish own enterprise; arranging for financial resources; applying for permits and licences, etc.
(2) In situations where the conventional means of seeking work are of limited relevance, where the labour market is largely unorganized or of limited scope, where labour absorption is, at the time, inadequate, or where the labour force is largely self-employed, the standard definition of unemployment given in subparagraph (1) above may be applied by relaxing the criterion of seeking work.

(3) In the application of the criterion of current availability for work, especially in situations covered by subparagraph (2) above, appropriate tests should be developed to suit national circumstances. Such tests may be based on notions such as present desire for work and previous work experience, willingness to take up work for wage or salary on locally prevailing terms, or readiness to undertake self-employment activity given the necessary resources and facilities.

(4) Notwithstanding the criterion of seeking work embodied in the standard definition of unemployment, persons without work and currently available for work who had made arrangements to take up paid employment or undertake self-employment activity at a date subsequent to the reference period should be considered as unemployed.

(5) Persons temporarily absent from their jobs with no formal job attachment who were currently available for work and seeking work should also be regarded as unemployed in accordance with the standard definition of unemployment. Countries may, however, depending on national circumstances and policies, prefer to relax the seeking work criterion in the case of persons temporarily laid off. In such cases, persons temporarily laid off who were not seeking work but classified as unemployed should be identified as a separate subcategory.

(6) Students, homemakers and others mainly engaged in non-economic activities during the reference period who satisfy the criteria laid down in subparagraphs (1) and (2) above should be regarded as unemployed on the same basis as other categories of unemployed identified separately, where possible.

National definitions of unemployment may differ from the recommended international standard definition. The national definitions used vary from one country to another as regards inter alia age limits, reference periods, criteria for seeking work, treatment of persons temporarily laid off and of persons seeking work for the first time.

Differences between countries with regard to the treatment of unemployed persons with respect to classification by status in employment are particularly pronounced. In general, unemployed persons with previous job experience, classified according to their last job, are included with employees, but in some cases they and unemployed persons seeking their first job form the most important part of the group persons not classifiable by status.

The classification according to industry (main economic activity carried out where work is performed) is fundamentally different from that according to occupation (main type of duties performed). In the former, all persons working in a given establishment are classified under the same industry irrespective of their particular occupations. The latter, on the other hand, brings together individuals working in similar types of work, irrespective of where the work is performed. As indicated in the tables, most countries have supplied data on the basis of the International Standard Classifications of Industry, ISIC-68 or ISIC Rev.3 and International Standard Classification of Occupations, ISCO-68 or ISCO-88 (see Appendix).

Even when using international classification schemes (economic activity and occupation), national practices may also diverge concerning the classification of the unemployed with previous job experience, who are often included in the residual category of the international classification scheme, i.e. under activities not adequately defined (ISIC) or workers not classifiable by occupation (ISCO).

Intercountry comparisons are further hampered by the variety of types of source used to obtain information on unemployment and the differences in the scope and coverage of such sources. 1

In general, four main sources of unemployment statistics may be distinguished. These sources are identified in the tables by codes in parentheses to the right of the country name. These Codes (BA), (E), (FA), (FB) are described below:

Source (BA). Labour force sample surveys. These sample surveys generally yield comprehensive statistics on unemployment since, in particular, they include groups of persons who are often not covered in unemployment statistics obtained by other methods, particularly persons seeking work for the first time. Generally the definition of unemployment used for this type of statistics follows more closely the international recommendations and such statistics are more comparable internationally than those obtained from other sources. The percentages of unemployment are also generally more reliable since they are calculated by relating the estimated number of persons unemployed to the estimate of the total number of employed and unemployed (the labour force) derived from the same survey.

Source (E). Official estimates. These statistics are official estimates provided by national authorities and are usually based on combined information drawn from one or more of the other sources described here. However, as the data in tables 3A to 3E attest to, the prevalence of this source is decreasing due to the increasing existence of labour force surveys in countries throughout the world.

Source (FA). Social insurance statistics. The statistics from this source are drawn from the records of compulsory unemployment insurance schemes which, where they exist, as a rule have a broad industrial coverage related to wage earners and salaried employees or to wage earners only. Unemployment rates are computed by comparing the number of recipients of insurance benefits to the total number of insured persons covered by the schemes. However, the extent to which the numbers and percentages of unemployed reported are representative of the general level of unemployment in the countries with this type of source is difficult if not impossible to ascertain.

Source (FB). Employment office statistics. These statistics generally refer to the number of persons looking for work who are entered on the registers at the end of each month. In addition to persons without a job, they may include persons on strike, or temporarily ill and unable to work and persons engaged on unemployment relief projects. In principle, these statistics do not include persons who are already in employment whose coverage is identified in the tables as registered unemployment. However, some applicants are persons already in employment who are seeking a change of job or extra work who are also registered at employment offices. The coverage of these series is therefore identified in the tables as work applicants.

The value of the statistics from this source varies widely. In cases where the unemployment offices function in close connection with unemployment insurance, registration being a qualifying condition for the receipt of unemployment benefits, they are comparable in reliability to compulsory unemployment insurance statistics (source FA). Similarly, where employment offices operate in close connection with large unemployment relief schemes, they may also provide reasonably satisfactory figures during the currency of the schemes. However, where registration is entirely voluntary, and especially where the employment offices function only in the more populous, urban areas of a country or are not widely patronised by employees seeking work or by employers seeking workers, the data are generally very incomplete and do not give a reliable indication of the true extent of unemployment. The scope of the figures is determined partly by the manner in which the system of exchanges is organized and the advantages which registration brings, and partly by the extent to which workers are accustomed to register. In many cases persons engaged in agriculture and living in less populous areas are scarcely represented in the statistics, if at all. The scope of employment office statistics is therefore most difficult to ascertain, and in very few cases can satisfactory percentages of unemployment be calculated. In general, these statistics are not comparable from country to country. However, within a country, if there are no changes in legislation, administrative regulations and the like, fluctuations may reflect changes in the prevalence of registered unemployment over time.

BobQ

Very complicated, particularly when you allow local national interpretations. But is it that complicated?

"unemployed" means not working but available to work and has stood the test of time. The official figures are correct as the Government say.

But people who want to work full time but who only manage to obtain casual work, part time work, ZHC that only provide less that a full working week do not count as unemployed. Neither do those who are self employed but working at less than full capacity. Surely this is the point that the TUC is making?

So is the Minister is out of touch with the proportion of the electorate that subsist in this difficult world of adhoc employment? Or is he cynically trying to convince those who enjoy stable jobs or do not need to work that these hard working people, who struggle to survive in this in between world, do not matter or count. I believe it is the latter.

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

Very complicated, particularly when you allow local national interpretations. But is it that complicated?

"unemployed" means not working but available to work and has stood the test of time. The official figures are correct as the Government say.

But people who want to work full time but who only manage to obtain casual work, part time work, ZHC that only provide less that a full working week do not count as unemployed. Neither do those who are self employed but working at less than full capacity. Surely this is the point that the TUC is making?

So is the Minister is out of touch with the proportion of the electorate that subsist in this difficult world of adhoc employment? Or is he cynically trying to convince those who enjoy stable jobs or do not need to work that these hard working people, who struggle to survive in this in between world, do not matter or count. I believe it is the latter.

just your definition of unemployment and not one of the normal accepted definitions or indeed very sensible

ukcarper

CLAPTON wrote: »

just your definition of unemployment and not one of the normal accepted definitions or indeed very sensible

People working part time who want to work full etc might not be unemployed or count to the unemployed figures. But they are a symptom and do make the unemployment figures look better than they are.

CLAPTON

ukcarper wrote: »

People working part time who want to work full etc might not be unemployed or count to the unemployed figures. But they are a symptom and do make the unemployment figures look better than they are.

obviously so but why are you choosing to tell me this ?