Question about bank accounts after death.

elektra

lawrie28 wrote: »

They removed funds electronically as they had online access as arranged by the bank.

Internet or telephone ?

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

If indeed a child has third party access then it will stop when the bank is informed of the death so any entries before then would be deemed as legit - however unpalatable this is.

Not sure about that as funds removed a few days after date of death.

Example of a Third Party mandate

http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_esf-ca-app-content/content/pws/content/personal/pdfs/40363-Third-Party-Mandate.pdf

a) It is immediately revoked when account holder dies.

b) This one does not allow internet access, so if funds were transferred this way then it was illegal anyway.

Any solicitor will/should question funds removed after date of death. Although I believe some banks will release some funds to pay for cost of a funeral..

jonesMUFCforever

Did you not read my post - the bank is not psychic - somebody has to let them know that a customer has died through the proper channels before a block is put on the accounts.

henm2

Some banks will act immediately once they are notified a customer has died. If a death certificate is not produced at the time then the informant is asked to provide one as soon as possible.

Once the bank is informed all existing mandates (i.e joint ac mandates. third party mandates, P of As etc) are cancelled. Joint personal accounts are transferred to the names of the surviving parties. Other than joint accounts all other accounts are frozen pending the bank receiving copy of probate (or letters of administration if no will). A bank will usually pay funeral bills from an account pending probate.

Amongst many tricky scenarios there is the situation if the deceased was a signatory on a business account other than club society ones. The only business accounts that will be able to carry on without interruption are Limited Company ones (unless of course the deceased was the only signatory). All other business accounts are usually frozen pending probate.

elektra

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

Did you not read my post - the bank is not psychic - somebody has to let them know that a customer has died through the proper channels before a block is put on the accounts.

Of course I did. I quoted it. Perhaps I should have highlighted it.

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

If indeed a child has third party access then it will stop when the bank is informed of the death so any entries before then would be deemed as legit - however unpalatable this is.

I wasn't questioning the timing of the block..
I was stating that it could turn out that they were not legit as the Third Party may have used a method not covered by the mandate and it is implied above that Third party knew of death before transactions and therefore went against terms of mandate.

I agree no liability against bank if they were not aware, so would be up to executor if they wanted to pursue against Third Party.

lawrie28

Just to clarify, the reason info is comig through in dribs and drabs ia because that is how it is hitting me. Also, i do not know everything that could be relevant, hence others asking for it.

I do not expext the bank to be liable, though they have let a withdrawal occur to close the account well after they were notified of the death. the was done with the submission of a form that i believe an executor would use to allow for the funeral to be paid. This will be queried at the bank as it is well over the 5k that is suggested be auth on the .gov website, but also whilst requiring a witness on the paperwork, it would appear that although witness name and address are filled in the witness did not sign it. So this is being looked into.

lawrie28

The solicitor involved has copy statements etc. and is he one bringing up the question of what has happened to the funds, why finds released without being properly witnessed etc.
Independant legal advise is also being sought.
I understand that it is possible the money could be sat in an account and wthe datails of this could be given to the solicitor at any time, but the feeling is that this is unlikely.
I have also found out that not all of the funds that were in the account at the time of death were included in the paperwork sent to hmrc when yhe value of the estate was declared. The estate will fall below the inheritance tax bracket, but as far as we are concerned is still fraud on some level.

jonesMUFCforever

lawrie28 wrote: »

Just to clarify, the reason info is comig through in dribs and drabs ia because that is how it is hitting me. Also, i do not know everything that could be relevant, hence others asking for it.

I do not expext the bank to be liable, though they have let a withdrawal occur to close the account well after they were notified of the death. the was done with the submission of a form that i believe an executor would use to allow for the funeral to be paid. This will be queried at the bank as it is well over the 5k that is suggested be auth on the .gov website, but also whilst requiring a witness on the paperwork, it would appear that although witness name and address are filled in the witness did not sign it. So this is being looked into.

As far as I know you don't say which bank it is.
When I had to deal with a family member who banked with LloydsTsb they have a claim form which can be used for straightforward claims of up to £25k.
The form asks whether there is a will (then executor deals with it) or if no will who next of kin is.
Unless the bank knows that the person reporting the death is lying (local knowledge perhaps claiming to be only child when there are others) he/she can sign the form (no witness required). The bank will ask for ID before releasing funds if not an existing customer.

This form also indemnifies the bank against the signatory should there be fraud.
As I said previously you have no claim IMO against the bank - the person you need answers from is the person who made the transfer or closed the account.

BMN

zerog wrote: »

This is OT, but I'm not sure that a "signatory" in the strict sense is possible in the UK.

I am a signatory on my parents' accounts in some other countries and this basically means I can do what I like, including taking all their money and closing the account without them even being notified. I am also authorised to use their cards and PINs and internet banking.

This is completely different from a power of attorney, which is general and would not apply to a specific bank.

In fact, it sometimes makes sense for wealthy couples (who get on) to have sole accounts and be signatories on each other's accounts rather than having a joint account.

You can be a signatory on someone's account in the UK. Think a savings account for young children. The account would be in the childs name but a parent/guardian would be the signatory.

Also with the UK banks just being a signatory on an account would not authorise you to use internet banking or any cards for the account if they are not in your own name.

lawrie28

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

As far as I know you don't say which bank it is.
When I had to deal with a family member who banked with LloydsTsb they have a claim form which can be used for straightforward claims of up to £25k.
The form asks whether there is a will (then executor deals with it) or if no will who next of kin is.
Unless the bank knows that the person reporting the death is lying (local knowledge perhaps claiming to be only child when there are others) he/she can sign the form (no witness required). The bank will ask for ID before releasing funds if not an existing customer.

This form also indemnifies the bank against the signatory should there be fraud.
As I said previously you have no claim IMO against the bank - the person you need answers from is the person who made the transfer or closed the account.

Thanks,

I appreciate your reply. The bank is Natwest, and in this case the form they asked to be filled in, which the solicitor has a copy of, required a witnesses details. As this has not been signed by the witness, someone, somewhere has not done their job properly.

In the long run, when the property involved is sold, any funds taken by this person would, I imagine, be counted as already paid to them when the total estate is divided, so no one will lose out financially, it is more the principal of the act, the deception and the legality of it.

Crystallady

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

Did you not read my post - the bank is not psychic - somebody has to let them know that a customer has died through the proper channels before a block is put on the accounts.

I worked for a high street bank for many years and I completely agree with jonesMUFCforever. The bank can only block the account when they have sight/copy of death certificate, any withdrawals between date of death and the receipt of the certificate would be acceptable to the bank together with any cheques written prior to death but presented after. Only the funeral bill can be paid after the account is frozen.

The only person at fault here is the person who drew the funds (and possibly lied to the bank)knowing that the account holder had died. They may have had a third party mandate which gave them free reign to act for the account holder but that ceased when they died. If they misused the access to the account and took the money for themselves who knows what they helped themselves too when the parent was alive.