Private Parking Fine

herbie-152

Timmne wrote: »

They may not have broken the LAW but have broken RULES - it's private property!

If someone constantly parked on your front lawn you'd be pretty quick to find a solution at a guess - the most efficient way is to introduce fining.

Just because it's a university in question rather than your front lawn doesn't make any difference. It's still private property and the land owners are free to do what they want to stop people using it as their own parking areas!

Timmne - this is an interesting point, but who has set these rules? It isn't the law or even a by-law. The local or national government haven't been involved. We're talking here exclusively about "rules" set by private companies and then enforced by the same companies.

Land owners are free to limit access to their land - subject to right of ways etc. - but they are not free to arbitrarily fine members of the public. They are land owners NOT courts!

ckerrd

reduceditem wrote: »

ckerrd....I'm not challenging the legality of anything (we could do that on another thread). I'm simply stating the legal position on enforcement of these 'fines' as it relates to the issuer and the person who receives it.

To keep me right then, is it the case that a person who parks without paying or in a space not designated for parking, such as described by the OP, cannot be pursued for any fines, as set out by the owner of the land?

sparky_1

Well ive heard opinions supporting both sides in this thread ie to pay or not to pay private firms "parking charges". But surely the factor which decides who is right and who is wrong is the side that can say "here is plenty of case evidence proving that people who are deciding not to pay private parking companys charges are being taken to court and LOSING. The courts are supporting the private parking companys" or alternatively " cases that have gone to court ARE being thrown out because at the end of the day, like bank charges, private parking companys "parking charges" are not proportionate and do not have any law supporting them. ie you cannot just decide you are going to fine someone and decide you will fine them any figure you please!"

Now IS there any real case evidence supporting either side in this argument ? Does anyone have any real evidence that Private parking companys are losing in court or is everything in this thread just personal opinion ?

In the case of bank charges the decision to tell people to challenge them is based on proof that the banks are NOT disputing the matter or winning in court because the law does not support them. Well plenty of people here are stating that the law does not support car parking companys and that they wont take the matter to court or win. Well surely a claim like that is easy to prove. Is this just personal opinion or IS this being proved to be true in the actual courts or are people being taken to court and losing.

herbie-152

Sparky

Thanks for bringing some shape to the argument. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question. I have read other message boards where people have gone to court and the case has been thrown out, but that is just heresay.

I would also be very interested in knowing if anyone has first hand experience. If the car park operator has a hold over you - e.g. school/university or employer - then the situation is obviously difficult. What I'm interested in is the shopping mall type operator.

What I can bring to the argument is that Euro Car Parks (whom I spoke to yesterday) refuse to call the ticket a "fine" or a "penalty" but only a "charge notice". I can only think that this is to allow them to argue like the banks have done that this isn't a penalty but rather a charge for operating the service.

I am going to ignore the ticket that my wife got while shopping and I'll keep the thread updated with my progress.

Thanks.

ckerrd

The legality was obviously challenged in Scotland (see post 16) and the authority of the car park owner/finer was upheld in that they could levy "fines" as there was a clear indication of that being done and by parking in an area designated for permit holders only, people accepted the ability to be fined.

I know what you mean about the shopping mall type situation, however I suspect in Scots Law the same would apply. Interestingly wheel clamping on private land is illegal in Scotland when it was ruled "extortion and theft" in a court case.

herbie-152

ckerrd wrote: »

To keep me right then, is it the case that a person who parks without paying or in a space not designated for parking, such as described by the OP, cannot be pursued for any fines, as set out by the owner of the land?

ckerrd: As far as I can work out, these are some of the pertinent facts:

1. You are breaking no criminal laws by parking on private land longer than someone wants you to.
2. An individual or company cannot impose a fine for breach of contract on another individual or company under English law that is disproportionate.
3. An individual or company cannot demand that another individual or company pays a fine that they have given out without a court order.
4. An individual or company may have some form of legal redress, e.g. trespass or breach of contract, against another individual or company, but this must involve the courts.
5. Unfortunately, the DVLA have decided that they can legally hand out the details of a car's registered owner on requested by a car park operator. This has been hotly contested but I don't believe the DVLA have been challenged in the courts and according to the DVLA website they are continuing to do so.

I accept that this doesn't give you a complete answer but hope that it helps a little.

ckerrd

very interesting.

I can understand about not breaking any criminal law.
Appears to be a split in the way this is handled North/South of the border.

I wonder what would happen if everyone going to a shopping centre/mall/ etc etc decided not to pay. Would the companies have to go through the courts every time to recalim the money? Blimey, what a palaver.

Elle00

bambam69 wrote: »

And Elle, I'm an independent student, I was driving my husbands car who earns little over minimum wage, I DO NOT have rich parents supporting me, I have struggled all year to keep 2 jobs and go to Uni, the campus is 8 miles from where I live. Anything else? I sympathise with life as a single parent, I take it you don't ever ask for help or support as you "brought it on yourself etc". If you are trying to say you were homeless once then I am sorry but your holier than thou attitude betrays you. I worked with homeless people for 3 months and I never ever met I self righteous one! Besides, sleeping rough is a crime. Surely you deserved punishment, you knew the rules right?

Excuse me but you're the one who started on with the sob story! And you're also the one who mentioned having rich parents... You've dug your own hole mate - don't try and pull the rest of us down with you. You asked for advice and I offered you the only viable option I see available to you: Pay the fines you clearly owe. I wasn't the one who got nasty and personal in the first instance and I think you owe me an apology for being so downright spiteful and assumptive. Sorry you didn't hear what you wanted to hear but I don't know what on earth you expected. This site is supposed to help people improve their finances by managing their money and using cheaper products etc. It's not here to help people escape paying fines they knew they would get for disobeying rules that the rest of us have to follow.

And how DARE you imply I deserve to be on my own with a young child it took two parents to create. That is just downright malicious.

bambam69

As has been pointed out on previous replies, they are not fines as a fine implies having broken a law. If the 'fine' was reasonable (if not particularly justified in my opinion) then I would have paid it by now and this would not be an issue. But it isn't, it is way out of proportion.
Others have said if the amount was affordable then people would just rack up the fines every day but this is not true. If it was a 5 or 10 pound fine payable to the university then people would still get a ticket from the machine for 1 pound wouldn't they? I didn't park in the middle of the road and block an ambulance! The government talked a few months ago of creating a more fair parking ticket system whereby people people who are 5 minutes late are not treated the same as people who park in front of fire stations etc, as is now the case. This again backs up in theory what I am saying, that parking tickets are often out of proportion.
And I do believe there are strong parallels between this sort of thing and the bank charges issue. Why not? You know the penalty for going overdrawn, if you break "THE RULES" (thanks for capitalising Timmne, you make it look even more petty) you are penalised. You don't have to have an account with the bank, you have signed that you agree to the terms and conditions (unlike when you park in a car park, where they do not give you advance written notice of the potential penalties), so when you get a 40 pound charge for being 1p overdrawn fair enough, right?
If someone can explain to me the difference between breaking one set of RULES (sorry, but the caps make me laugh every time) and another, then I would be grateful. Otherwise I'll assume that all the people on this forum who have expressed an opinion that I have no point challenging this, 140 quid is very fair, and I'm essentially whining about something which is my own fault are expending equal amounts of energy telling Martin that the bank charges are fair, all the people trying to wriggle out of them knew the rules, etc etc.

And Elle, you seem to misunderstand. I am not saying that you have brought single motherhood on yourself etc, but merely that many in society who choose not to look at the details of someones life may draw this conclusion. I feel that you were very quick to pass judgement on MY situation with moral pontificating, when someone in a situation so often moralised against could have had more understanding. That is all.

bambam69

Also, for all those that pointed out that I asked for advice and now smugly tell me that they did indeed give me advice (pay up), thanks very much.

It's a bit like the doctor saying you have cancer and you replying "What can I do?"
and the doctor saying "Die?"