Hot Water Cylinder Size Question

beckyoc

Hi

I'm a newbie needing a bit of advice on my hot water cylinder. I have had the hot water system and heating in my house replaced as part of a full renovation and I think the system has been under-specced!

The house is a 6 bed victorian but the plumbing firm has put in a hot water cylinder which is 114litre capacity (1050mm x 450mm) which seems to last one bath and that is it - all of the hot water in the house is wiped out. Am I mad to think that with 6 bedrooms the house would need a much bigger cylinder than that? The plumber we employed seems to think so and will argue until he is blue in the face that it is the british standard etc etc.

I also told him when he was quoting for the job that we would be putting in 2 power showers and an additional bathroom (2 in total) but he claims that this will still be enough.

Any suggestions/advice very gratefully received! I am getting desperate and considering going legal.....

Cheers
Becky

p.s. how do you know if you have a fast recovery cylinder - he also claims we have one of these I am not convinced by any thing he says at this point??

Canucklehead

Hi
Welcome to MSE


It would seem that you have been under specced.Did you get a detailed description of your installation and what was to be fitted??
A large house with 2 bathrooms and two showers (I assume you mean showers fed from the cylinder) would need somewhere in the region of 250 - 300 litres of stored hot water. It doesn't make any difference if it's unvented or not.
All new hot water cylinders are Part L compliant ie; they have larger heating coils and thicker lagging plus other points. They are designed to reheat in 20mins with a fully pumped heating system.If they don't it's not the cylinders fault but the system that heats it.
There are smaller fast recovery cylinders available that have multi coil heat exchangers . Even if you have one of these it's still undersized.
Look for a label on the cylinder it will have 'Benchmark' on it and space for a name and other details of the installer. It will also have the size and make and what type it is. It might be round the back of the cylinder have a look with a mirror. If it's not there then it may have been 'lost' in transit .
Your installer should have given you all of the above advice and a lot more besides.
Makes you wonder what else he has under specced.
How much did you pay for the works.?

HTH

Corgi Guy.

See also https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/uploads/documents/housingbuildings/ce30.pdf

beckyoc

Hello - Thanks so much for your reply.

The description was not very detailed - it outlined the boler type (worcester 30cdi - is this enough???), controls - twin zoning valves (what are these?), thermostats etc and stated "hot water cylinder" with no detail as to size.

As the installation went on we added in a new cold water tank - for which he only put in a 50 gallon tank and we have now upgraded to 100 gallon (at our cost!) because our shower pump (S Turner monsoon 3 bar) was running dry on occasion.

I have checked the cylinder and there are no labels at all - can I demand the spec from him?

We paid around £7000 but this did not include cost of rads or shower pump as we purchased these seperately. Have we been ripped off??

The house is also 200 sq m and I see from a quick look at the link you added that houses over 150 sq m should have 2 heat zones - is this a nice have or a new regulation?

Apologies for all of these questions but we have been at a complete loss until now for information and when you can get in touch with the plumber he is constantly fobbing us off!!

Thanks again Corgi Guy!

Becky

Canucklehead

Good morning: My OH, Corgi Guy, is off to work but he'll be back online later today. I'll fill him in on your updated info in the meantime. There are a few heating engineers who post regularly on this forum who might be able to give you input as well.

Canucklehead

beckyoc

Thanks very much - all advice very much appreciated - cheers!!
Becky

Canucklehead

Hi

The zoning of a house over 150m2 is one of the requirements of Part L The idea is that we, as installers, are all singing of the same hymn sheet:this obviously doesn't work, as in your case.
Anyway.. as your quote was so loosely written it will be difficult to go the legal route. It states you will get a cylinder, and you have.The only thing you could claim is incompetence for fitting one that is obviously (to most plumbers ) too small (and the cold water tank.)

The boiler may be adequate for your house if it's a semi or terrace. Detached....not sure .The method used is The Whole House Method. Did you have an old boiler taken out?
Was the pipe work existing or completely new? If the rads were fitted onto existing pipework then I would say you paid too much.
Was the boiler notified to CORGI?
These are zone valves http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/763-0000
Without knowing the layout of your house is it possible to fit another cylinder to serve one bathroom or floor of your house and either leave or upsize the other one to serve the rest of the house. This means more pipework but might help split the demand for hot water and avoid long draw off times.

beckyoc

Hi Corgi Guy

I have phoned Corgi and they have told me the work has not been registered with them - despite it supposedly being completed in August 06!! So I will go through their complaints procedure I think - is this any good do you know or is there a better course of action to take? Should I call Building reg dept as well?

The house is detached and an old floor standing one was taken out and the new one resited (incidentally we didn't want to put it in a bedroom but he convinced us otherwise and now we really regret it - yet another gripe I'm afraid!!). The pipework was all new throughout the house (including the kitchen and bathroom runs) -does this still sound like we paid too much?

Thanks a million for your help.

Becky

beckyoc

Hi Corgi Guy

I have phoned Corgi and they have told me the work has not been registered with them - despite it supposedly being completed in August 06!! Is this as bad as it sounds - I thought it was a legal requirement to let them know even if you were just entering a building to do gas work? I will go through their complaints procedure I think - is this any good do you know or is there a better course of action to take? Should I call Building reg dept as well?

The house is detached and an old floor standing boiler was taken out and the new one resited from the kitchen into a bedroom which incidentally we didn't want to do but he convinced us otherwise and now we really regret it - yet another gripe I'm afraid!! (Could you give me a ballpark figure for the cost of moving a boiler and cylinder up a floor - we're getting to the stage of thinking if we are going to have to pay money putting the system right we might as well get the boiler put where we want it to be....?)

The pipework was all new throughout the house (including the kitchen and bathroom runs) - does this still sound like we paid too much?

Thanks a million for your help and apologies for bugging you with all of these questions.

Becky

Canucklehead

Hello: My OH, Corgi Guy is up in London until tomorrow night but I will be able to give you a bit of advice...
1. Call your installer and advise him verbally that you want the installation notified (info on Building Regs Certificate here http://www.trustcorgi.com/consumer/requestacertificate.htmx and that you are aware that he has broken the law, he has ten days to rectify the situation and if he fails to do so you will
a) register a complaint with CORGI at http://www.trustcorgi.com/complain/installer/reportregisteredinstallers.htmx
b) contact Trading Standards
c) file a claim at https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco/index.jsp to recoup your costs i.e. having Local Building Control in to inspect and notify your installation

State the same in a letter sent by recorded delivery.

Complaints to CORGI about installers have had mixed results (thread on MSE about it by Mancity Chick http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=4750296#post4750296 ). Ultimately the Health and Safety Executive has responsibilty for gas safety...IMHO an unsatisfactory arrangement:o

In regard to your cost of installation, my OH says you could expect to pay that kind of money if you lived in London/Greater London and without seeing the installation, the boiler could be undersized. The Energy Saving Trust https://www.est.org.uk has a boiler sizing online tool if you want to check out the spec yourself.

Your cowboy needs to be lassoed and hogtied!!

HTH

Canucklehead

P.S. Can't comment on ball park figure for moving boiler and cylinder..I'll leave that to the family expert!