Any joiners around? I need your opinion.

afm_2

Hi,

I live in a fairly new 3-storey house where quite a few stairs are creaking. Since it is still under NHBC warranty, I have requested the inspection from an NHBC inspector. The claim was rejected on the grounds that the carpet was not installed by the builder and the grippers on the stairs were nailed; the inspector concluded that nailing the grippers caused damage on the stairs. He did not open any of the stairs to inspect if that was indeed the case.

Since then, I have opened a small inspection window in one of the creaking stairs. Inside, I found a piece of wood (shown in the image at the end of this post).

I suspect that this piece of wood was being used as a glue block to secure the tread to the riser. However, in all the photos I have seen about glue blocks and wedges, I have never seen anything like this! Moreover, it appears that they have used massive nails to secure it to the stair, causing the wood to split (picture below shows the split in the wood).

What I would like to ask is: is this a standard glue block? Could this be considered sub-standard work by the builder? In my opinion, using this block of wood as a glue block and nailing it as shown is a recipe for disaster and should be considered sub-standard work. What do you think?

Many thanks in advance for your views on this matter!

I am sorry for the sizing of the pictures, but I didn't manage to resize them.

leveller2911

IIRC we had a similar thread a few weeks ago. Nailing carpet grippers onto a stair tred or riser would not cause any damage to the stairs if the staircase was correctly constructed. Gripper rod nails are only around 16-20mm long and take little effort to hammer them home.

There is no "standard" for glue blocks but from my experience 95% of people who make staircases fix glue blocks as in the link below (scroll down the page). The "glue block" in your photo would not be one supplied/made by the manufacturer is just an off cut of timber probably found on site. Glue blocks in general are glued and pinned, the only reason they are pinned is to keep them in place until the glue sets as modern adhesives are excellant. As a guide if the staircase is 850mm wide then I tend to glue 3-4 glue bocks (80mm wide) under where each tread and riser meet.Then screw the bottom of the riser to the back of the tread. Scroll down the link to the part :Whats beneath a set of stairs? and you can see the glue blocks.Its an Austrailian site but the construction is the same.

Those nails used in your photo could cause damage when hammered in by breaking the glue joint between the treads and risers so how the NHBC can say that gripper rods with small nails have caused damage is a complete joke.

http://year3shopfitting.wikispaces.com/Stairs

afm_2

Thank you very much for your post! That is very helpful.

We are sure that the stairs weren't well-constructed. It's mainly the stairs that were built on-site that creak and move. If it was because of the grippers, then surely all stairs would have the same problem.

We have asked NHBC to come back and they are coming back tomorrow. We want to be prepared to respond to any of their attempts to refuse the claim. Any advice on what we should say?

We are prepared to say that:
1. We have asked the opinion of several joiners and they all agree that nailing grippers to *well-constructed* stairs wouldn't cause this damage;
2. There were no warnings on the stairs about nailing grippers;
3. They haven't used standard glue blocks;
4. Glue blocks were nailed, thus the nails might have caused the damage.

Anything else that we should add?
Thank you!

leveller2911

afm wrote: »

Thank you very much for your post! That is very helpful.

We are sure that the stairs weren't well-constructed. It's mainly the stairs that were built on-site that creak and move. If it was because of the grippers, then surely all stairs would have the same problem.

We have asked NHBC to come back and they are coming back tomorrow. We want to be prepared to respond to any of their attempts to refuse the claim. Any advice on what we should say?

We are prepared to say that:
1. We have asked the opinion of several joiners and they all agree that nailing grippers to *well-constructed* stairs wouldn't cause this damage;
2. There were no warnings on the stairs about nailing grippers;
3. They haven't used standard glue blocks;
4. Glue blocks were nailed, thus the nails might have caused the damage.

Anything else that we should add?
Thank you!

Tell him that it is "industry good practice" to fit glue blocks under each tread where it meets the riser.It is also "industry good practice" to glue all string wedges where the treads and risers meet the stair strings.Blaming the nailing of gripper rods for the creaking of the stairs is a complete red herring, never heard of such rubbish in over 25yrs of making Joinery..

Make him aware that you have taken advice from qualified Joiners and that you are not prepared to be fobbed off. They will probably say that the staircase is safe so in itself does not break Building regulations.That said it sounds like the staircase has a possible inherent design/manufacturing flaw which could clinch it in your favour.

let us know how you get on with the NHBC and we can go from there.I'm afraid this thread is yet another warning to anyone purchasing a house which is covered by an NHBC warranty...........

leveller2911

afm wrote: »

We are prepared to say that:


1. We have asked the opinion of several joiners and they all agree that
nailing grippers to *well-constructed* stairs wouldn't cause this damage;


2. There were no warnings on the stairs about nailing grippers;


3. They haven't used standard glue blocks;


4. Glue blocks were nailed, thus the nails might have caused the
damage.





Anything else that we should add?


Thank you!

Glue blocks should be glued and "pinned" with thin nails/pins but never with what looks like 3" sheradised wire nails which are usually used for studwork construction.Galvanised/sheradised nails are for outside use or where there is possible moisture contact not under a tread/riser on an internal staircase...

Knocking in large wire nails may well have casued damage as you point out.

afm_2

Thank you so much. I'll take notes of what you say and will tell them exactly that.

We don't have much hope but we'll try our best. We have in our favor that, in the previous report, the inspector says that the repairs would be over the minimum claim value and that they would have been covered if builder had installed the carpets. I don't think that, in that respect, he can say much more now.

Again, thanks for your time on a Sunday afternoon I'll report back what happened.

afm_2

Just reporting back.

I don't think we'll get anywhere with NHBC. I'll wait for their response and then report back again.

Thanks!

evoke

You might just have to get a carpenter in to fix the stairs. The NHBC warranty is worthless most of the time.

I'd get estimates for the work first and take it from there.