New turbo failed... need help/advice on getting refund :(

tahrey

OK, as ever, maybe a bit long, but it is complex... and I will put in some kind of paragraphing

So...

Late 2011, bought an 03 plate Clio DCi. All seemed well at first. Had a few hiccups along the way, dodgy EGR, TDC sensor, bad connections in the fuse/relay box, leaky radiator, fully expired AC etc, but nothing out of the ordinary for an oldish car (116k miles when bought).

Then the turbo started to whistle and an increasing amount of smoke started coming out of the back when it was on boost, and disappearing out of the sump.

After suffering this a few months, just making sure to keep it topped up, I managed to scrape the cash together for what was thankfully still a preventative replacement. Went for the more expensive option of a brand new unit with a 2-year warranty in case something went wrong, as it was only about sixty quid more than the refurbished option which only gave thirty days or so.

And again, all seemed well at first. Much quieter, no smoke, though it seemed rather more laggy. Wasn't sure whether it was just the turbo, or the new EGR that was fitted at the same time (garage discovered my "fix" for the old one's issues - disconnecting the control plug, as it drove better and still passed the MOT emissions test without it - and put it to me that having a properly working air intake & exhaust system was a condition of the new one's warranty, especially as it's possible the other one's creeping failure was exacerbated by it being locked out)... but still, resolved to ask about it when taking it back after a few weeks for the periodic post-install check-up it was due.

But I never got to do that, as when making time up the M69 towards a cinematic retrospective event, the engine stuttered a moment, then lost all power and jettisoned a large gout of smoke out the back. Then tried to runaway on me as I dived onto the shoulder and dipped the clutch, provoking a panic two-footed brake application in 5th gear ... at 60mph... with no ABS as the key was turned off...

All the water then came out as the internal temperature was somewhere approaching volcanic due to lack of oil, and it must have narrowly avoided seizing entirely. Topped both up best I could with what I had on board but couldn't get either up to minimum levels, and the engine refused to restart, although it did turn over with some rather sad and worrying noises. AA man refused to even try when I described the symptoms, and just towed it back to the garage that fitted the turbo.

...who, after checking it out, managed to get it running again (as a clattery, smoking, three-cylinder mess, matching the compression test they did that showed one being effectively unsealed), and said that in their opinion that there was nothing wrong with the turbo, but if there was, then I might not get anywhere with claiming on the warranty as the post-install checks hadn't been carried out (I hadn't had much opportunity for that, as the requirement for them was news for me when I was told it after the replacement was done, and had been using the car throughout the intervening period, though only really for limited distance commuting and only one other longer distance trip before the one that killed it). I managed to struggle it home, during which trip the fourth cylinder came back.

Independent assessments both by myself and a family friend mechanic quite definitely point to it being turbo oil seal failure; the thing still actually works, it spools and produces boost, but it widdles oil into the boost pipe as it does it. The next time I took it on the road and gave it some harder acceleration as a test (up until then I hadn't dared go over 30mph or 1500rpm) it instantly ran away on me again (at the point of changing 1st to 2nd gear!) and sent an even bigger cloud of literally choking grey smoke overtaking me down the road as I stood on the brake. But with the boost pipe disconnected and a sock forming a makeshift filter over the intercooler intake, it runs fairly happily as a low-tune non-turbo diesel engine... gutless as anything, but will manage 60+ mph with a run up and rev beyond 4000 rpm on full throttle without runaway, which suggests there's nothing wrong with the injectors, valve seals, etc. With the noise of the turbo spooling away in the background, and oil dribbling out of the unfiltered part of the disconnected pipe.

(I say -fairly- happily, as the original breakdown has done a serious number on the whirly metal bits - as far as we can tell, it's bent a conrod, maybe more, meaning at least one cylinder is making horrible clacking noises, suggesting that one or other bearings isn't long for this world thanks to the battering it must be receiving, and also isn't sealing properly thus isn't burning the injected diesel correctly, so there's still quite a bit of smoke on full throttle... just not quite as much as before. This engine as a whole isn't really useable any more, outside of emergencies.)

... soooo ....

I guess my question is...

Given that the car, even if in a fixed state, isn't worth more than £1200, and replacing the engine will likely cost £800+ between parts and labour (never mind the cost of getting the turbo and its replacement on and off)...

A/ is it worth doing any of that, if I can e.g. find a cheap cat C writeoff that's been shunted up the rear but has a decent engine... or just breaking and scrapping it?

B/ have I got a snowball's chance of actually getting a refund or replacement on this obviously dodgy turbo, and how should I go about doing it if so? Demand satisfaction from the garage, who I've otherwise trusted and been on good terms with for many years up until this point... find out from them who the supplier was and approach them direct (petitioning for them to cover the labour costs as well, and maybe the cost of fixing the resultant damage)... or something else?

After all, it's under warranty, there was no fixed schedule stipulated for the tests (only that they "must be done" sometime soon-ish after the install ... but I couldn't have got through one tank of diesel between installation and failure, which means that I could have had it put in and then seen it break in a single day if I'd been off on a long, demanding trip), and if nothing else the intent was there to comply with it, it just broke so early I wasn't able to do so. "Infant mortality" is a recognised problem in computer engineering, so surely there's a matching phenomenon in the automotive field?

I have a replacement car now, that my mum graciously gave me as she was changing hers - but the stipulation is that I pay her whatever I can get back from the sale or breaking of the old one, and also from refunding off the turbo if possible... So I'd like to at least be able to give her something!

Weird_Nev

I have actually read all of that.

In my opinion:
1) You will be better off with that car out of your life.
2) Do not spend another penny on it.
3) Your only hope with the warranty is to get a replacement turbo (not much use without a working engine to bolt it to) or perhaps a partial or full refund.

Who was the turbo from? For future reference, companies like "turbo technics" can rebuild turbos if they haven't failed catastrophically, and this can be a much more wallet friendly solution especially for an ageing car.

Let this be a lesson in "good money after bad". The faults you list are not "par for the course" on a car with 116k miles. Once a car starts costing money on things like that, it rarely stops. The fact you had some "bodges" on the engine and it sounds like a number of faults combined will not help come warranty argument time.

Do not use the car any further. Driving a diesel with an engine prone to running away is lethal. I'd say break it for parts, scrap the rest, and hand that money to your mum.

Re "infant mortality" in Car components it's called "the bathtub failure curve". You have a fair number of failures initally through poor install or faulty components, then a low failure rate gradually increasing over time, steepening as it goes. Plotted against time it looks like a length wise cross section through a bathtub.

motorguy

Weird_Nev wrote: »

I have actually read all of that.

In my opinion:
1) You will be better off with that car out of your life.
2) Do not spend another penny on it.
3) Your only hope with the warranty is to get a replacement turbo (not much use without a working engine to bolt it to) or perhaps a partial or full refund.

Who was the turbo from? For future reference, companies like "turbo technics" can rebuild turbos if they haven't failed catastrophically, and this can be a much more wallet friendly solution especially for an ageing car.

Let this be a lesson in "good money after bad". The faults you list are not "par for the course" on a car with 116k miles. Once a car starts costing money on things like that, it rarely stops. The fact you had some "bodges" on the engine and it sounds like a number of faults combined will not help come warranty argument time.

Do not use the car any further. Driving a diesel with an engine prone to running away is lethal. I'd say break it for parts, scrap the rest, and hand that money to your mum.

Re "infant mortality" in Car components it's called "the bathtub failure curve". You have a fair number of failures initally through poor install or faulty components, then a low failure rate gradually increasing over time, steepening as it goes. Plotted against time it looks like a length wise cross section through a bathtub.

totally agree with this. Warranties on turbos on old cars are rarely worth the paper they're written on, as the supplier will find some extenuating reason why the turbo failure was caused by something else.

Bad engines these old 1.5 DCi's and all the problems the O/P has experienced is directly in line with my experience of them as a motor trader.

Definitely get rid. Look at the most financially humaine ways of doing so - whether that be breaking it for spares or running it through an auction.

If the O/P is doing less than 15,000 miles a year, they'd be better off with a 1.2 petrol than a diesel with high maintenance costs.

colino

From your comprehensive post I think you had the new turbo installed by a garage, hence new egr etc., and your breakdown and runaway points to a turbo fail. If they did follow all the turbo supplying company procedures installation guides, push for a refund, but you certainly don't want a replacement to bolt on to your car. As said the turbo warranty will have been written by a Philadelphia Lawyer to prevent recourse, especially excluding consequential loss. If you have a great mate who happens to be a lawyer, claim for it all. If not, try to get the turbo money back and get car hunting.

vaio

I'd forget warrenty as the terms of that can be (and usually are) way more restrictive than your rights under SoG (assuming the garage supplied & fitted the turbo.)

Either the garage supplied a faulty turbo or they fitted it incorrectly so it's their responsibility under SoG to sort it out. Realistically, the car is marginal at best as to whether it's worth fixing so the best you can expect is a refund for the work carried out plus maybe a couple of hundred quid for the car.

Your evidence of the failed turbo oil seal is the key so I'd be keeping the car in a condition that this can be verified by someone independent if the garage don't play ball.

I'd talk to the garage, giving all the salient points from your OP and see what they say. If they aren't helpful and you want to pursue it then follow up with a letter saying that informal checks have established the oil seal failed and if they don't sort it out you will get the car examined by an independent expert and then seek to recover all costs via the courts if necessary.

tahrey

Thanks chaps. Between that post and returning I checked out the prices of second hand engines, what the car would likely be worth and all that, and I figured that at best I'd probably come out a hundred quid ahead after getting the bits, having the work done, etc. Not worth the aggro.

It also turns out the internal components are surprisingly fragile. Maybe it's because TDs have to have stronger heads and gaskets or something, IDK, but any previous car if it had got hydrolocked for some reason I'd have expected the head to crack (...replacement head, not too expensive, and with a moderate possibility of being DIYable). Instead, conrod damage (basically fatal to the whole engine unless you have your own mechanic's workshop) seems far more common with the DCi's.

Thus I'm going to wander down to the garage in question this afternoon, tell them that we determined the turbo did actually fail, and that although it was likely the cause of the internal damage I just want to get that part refunded; if nothing else, I'll press to find out who the supplier and/or manufacturer of the thing was, as I don't even know that right now - or AFAIK have any kind of actual warranty document other than my receipt from the garage (yes, dumb, I know) so I'd have to know the seller/maker to try and look that info up. I paid extra for one with a longer warranty, so I'd kind of like to at least see what it covers.

As far as I would tell, other than a bit of valve chatter (which would be unlikely to have any knock-on effect on the turbo?) the rest of the engine was still in good nick, even down to a reasonably recent cambelt change. The only parts which might have affected it had they been faulty - particularly the EGR - were changed at the same time. So it's either a duff turbo, an install fault, or possibly one of the other bits that have gone wrong. I doubt it's a blocked oil pipe given how it's quite happily coming down the boost hose. Biggest suspicion is on the part itself.

Right now it's parked up in my garage (SORN and without insurance), and the only material change made so far is the decoupling of the boost pipe from the intercooler, which was a matter of loosening a jubilee clip and pulling (then putting on the makeshift filter before daring to turn it over), thus easily reversible. Did nothing else before or after. Since it blew up on the motorway I doubt I've put more than 10 to 15 miles on the clock, between limping it home from the garage, ditching it at my Nan's, the two test runs and then the homeward drag. So it should be acceptable for an assessor to look at.

Just wondering if I'd be able to get the turbo back off myself if they want it sent back, or if I'll end up paying for that work as well. If so, is there any chance that will be covered?

vaio

As above, stick to chasing the garage under SoG.

Turbo warrenty is unlikely to give you a refund and even if they did it will likely be the trade price so maybe 50% of what you paid and likely no labour/consequential costs.

spacey2012

I am more amazed it ever made 116k miles, what dogs they are, must be a record.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

i dealt in turbo warranties as a motor factor employee years ago, i can tell you unless it was obvious it failed of a unrelated to warranty restriction defect it was near on impossible to get a company to honour the warranty, if they did they would not pay out on labour costs due to the replacement being Good will gesture not admitting liability BS they pull off ion times.

we sold a BMW 3 series turbo, a week later it was obvious a crack was evident in the oil feed coupling connection causing the oil the seep out the side of the turbo housing, unless you screwed the connector in the crack was invisible to the eye, the companie we got it off refused to honour warranty citing the garage failed to perform pre check installation proceedure was not adhered to in the warranty terms, and claimed that a non standard oil feed connector was fitted wich caused the crack. garage had to falk out for the new turbo another £1400, because they took the claim on the chin ebing that the failure was only picked up shortly after work being done, and the company pitted the blame on them.

weve had the same with transit turbo's, use of veg oil was one they stipulated, but yet a test to counter act that claim found no veg oil present in the system that one went to court, and the judge told the turbo company to uphold the warranty and labour, and also secured storage fee's from them.

tahrey

spacey2012 wrote: »

I am more amazed it ever made 116k miles, what dogs they are, must be a record.

It's got 133k on the clock now! Was 132-and-some when the turbo was changed...

Literally the highest mileage car I've ever driven. If it wasn't for this blow up, I was expecting at least 150-160 out of it, they're supposedly good for it. Hence going for the warranty, as I intended to keep the car another two years.

I know diesels are supposed to run on for ages, but that's a reputation born from old non-turbo behemoths and the earlier lower pressure, still quite large displacement TDs, like the 1.9 VWs that only made about 75hp themselves. In this case, we're dragging 80hp (and 185NM) out of a 1.45 - and the newer models are tuned even higher. Time was when I would have been impressed by that from a (NA) petrol of the same size, god knows I've driven more gutless 1.6's. So they're rather more stressed than their older counterparts...

But like I say, other than a bit of tappet noise, the gunged up EGR and a leaky radiator, the core components were all fine up until now.

tahrey

vaio wrote: »

As above, stick to chasing the garage under SoG.

Turbo warrenty is unlikely to give you a refund and even if they did it will likely be the trade price so maybe 50% of what you paid and likely no labour/consequential costs.

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

i dealt in turbo warranties as a motor factor employee years ago....

Well, bumcakes. Looks like I'm in for a bit of an uncomfortable afternoon then, and may well have been shafted when it came to being presented with the replacement choices. Not really what I wanted when also trying to get ready for a holiday.

I'd really rather not get on bad terms with this lot as they're one of the better local garages and haven't done any bad deals that they haven't then fixed afterwards, but I have a gut feeling this is all going to go south.

Uncle has offered to come along as backup, I think I might take him up on that, despite a tendancy to go off half cocked.


(how the heck can they prove that certain pre-install checks have or haven't been done?!)