When is midnight in your view?

dkennedy1001

Hi,

We have just been fined I think unfairly at Harpenden train station parking. The story is, my wife rang up on the 4th in regards her weekly ticket and it said the ticket was valid until midnight of the 5th so she thought she had one more day so continued on her day as usual but then got a ticket on the 5th! It seems like they are saying that midnight on the 5th is actually 00:00 in the early hours of the morning before the start of the 5th day.

Surely midnight on the 5th is not 00:00 between the 4th and the 5th but 00:00 on the night of 5th for any reasonable person so I am appealing. Interestingly the automated person now says 23:59 of whatever day so it looks like they have changed it. Do you think I have a case?

I think I do considering they are after changing their own system since to clarify things!

Thanks

Kite2010

Which PPC has issued the invoice?

When did she buy the weekly ticket?

The_Slithy_Tove

A weekly ticket would normally be valid for 7 days including the day on which it was purchased, even if it were bought at 10pm.

jfinnie

Technically speaking they are right I believe. "Midnight on the 5th" is 00:00:00 on a clock after 23:59:59 on the 4th. But there is huge ambiguity as most lay people would understand it to be what you said.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/6459/how-should-midnight-on-be-interpreted

The fact they're changing how they describe it shows they know there is a problem with using this term.

dkennedy1001

Sorry guys, just checked with the Mrs and it was a monthly ticket not weekly that she bought.

APCOA issued the ticket so I guess she must have bought it by phone on the 4th the month before but she wouldnt of been even keeping track when she bought it and was relying on the automated phone system to tell her when it was up.

GwylimT

23.59 would be the 4th, 00.00 would be midnight on the fifth, just as the next 00.00 would be midnight on the 6th as it is now another day.

dkennedy1001

jfinnie wrote: »

Technically speaking they are right I believe. "Midnight on the 5th" is 00:00:00 on a clock after 23:59:59 on the 4th. But there is huge ambiguity as most lay people would understand it to be what you said.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/6459/how-should-midnight-on-be-interpreted

The fact they're changing how they describe it shows they know there is a problem with using this term.

Very interesting and like you i agree with the fact they have now changed it kinda proves our point even if technically they could be right according to that link. I think if I asked the head of APCOA to meet me at midnight right now they wouldnt think it was in the past i.e. 00:00 earlier this morning :-)

Coupon-mad

dkennedy1001 wrote: »

Sorry guys, just checked with the Mrs and it was a monthly ticket not weekly that she bought.

APCOA issued the ticket so I guess she must have bought it by phone on the 4th the month before but she wouldnt of been even keeping track when she bought it and was relying on the automated phone system to tell her when it was up.

You do know, presumably, from this forum that APCOA can't issue fines and are just a private company? I assume the fake parking ticket does not include the word 'penalty' in the tile and does not mention Railway byelaws? So it's just an invoice - not a fine at all and NOT form the Train Operator - and as such, you can beat it.

Same advice applies to you as on jfinnie's thread and every single other one here where someone has so far only got a fake PCN on the windscreen. Do nothing YET:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4702979

Wait for a Notice to Keeper (NTK) to arrive in the post; this will almost certainly be non-compliant with the BPA Code of Practice (Google it and compare) and the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (checklist shown here):

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

- When the NtK arrives, get a "soft" appeal in to the company (plenty of examples on this forum, but ask for help if you need it; be very, very careful not to reveal that you were the driver)

- When they reject your "soft" appeal, put together a strong appeal to POPLA using all of the non-compliant points in both the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper and all of the other relevant points you find on this forum; do NOT admit to being the driver; post it up here to be reviewed before you send it.

As it's probably railway land you will have the the additional point (At POPLA stage) that the land is almost certainly covered by byelaws and so 'registered keeper liability' cannot even apply under the POFA.

- Sit back and enjoy the sense of satisfaction that comes from knowing that they have wasted £30 on funding the POPLA appeal (which they pay) for nothing.

But for now, do nothing. Do not contact them, wait for them to write to you as long as you are the registered keeper. Read some threads in the meantime!

dkennedy1001

Thanks for the info, I think I will give this a go .

bazster

While you are at it, email the Herts Advertiser. I once got on the front page after contacting them with a moan about an incident at Harpenden Station!

Mojisola

dkennedy1001 wrote: »

It seems like they are saying that midnight on the 5th is actually 00:00 in the early hours of the morning before the start of the 5th day.

Surely midnight on the 5th is not 00:00 between the 4th and the 5th but 00:00 on the night of 5th

I'd agree with you. If you think of a 24 hour day, midnight when the 4th changes into the 5th is the end of the 24 hours of the 4th day. Midnight on the 5th would be as the 5th turns into the 6th.

If it wasn't that way, we'd celebrate New Year's Eve (midnight on the 31st) as the 30th becomes the 31st.