Section 21 issued with AST

amy104

I am reading a sample tenancy agreement for our new tenancy and after the AST there is a Section 21b to sign.

Now I am aware that if the deposit is not protected beforehand this is invalid, and I think I'm right in assuming we have to sign the AST before the 21b for it to be valid?

My question is say the deposit was protected beforehand etc where does this leave us? Can they evict you before the end of the fixed term (1 year) or does it just mean they can ask us to leave at the end of it without notice?

I'm aware we could stay and let it lapse into periodic and they have to go to court to evict us ect, but we always try to be good tenancy and would prefer to avoid unnecessary hassle for all involved.

I'm aware if i don't sign they may not issue the tenancy, or they could just issue it after we moved in anyway so Im not sure if there is anything i can really do about it, just curious.

jamie11

The S21 will be invalid.

amy104

Even if the deposit is protected and we sign the AST first?

Why is it invalid?

[Deleted User]

If the S21 was valid and served during the fixed term (at least 2 months before the end) it would mean that at the end of the fixed term they could seek possession of the property from the courts (if you refused to leave). If they were to serve a S21 at the end of the tenancy they would first have to wait for your 2 months notice to expire...

An S21 (if it's valid) served between the start of a tenancy and the end just means that you've already had your notice period.

jamie11

Because it will have been issued before you signed for the tenancy and any money you have paid becomes a deposit.

It's a poor landlord/agency that welcomes their new tenant with a S21. It is viewed as a threat by the tenant that if they don't agree to pay a new fee for another fixed term then they will be evicted. Landlords often do not know about it if an agency is dealing with the property.

Further, you should not be paying the deposit in full until you are ready to sign the AST. What you may have paid so far should be called a holding fee until it is used as the deposit when the tenancy begins.

amy104

I'm not refering to the holding deposit.

We usually transfer the deposit and rent money by bank a few days prior to collecting keys so it can clear as many agencies charge you extra for paying via card on the day. I work and cannot get to a bank to take cash. When we collected our last keys we were given the info on our deposit there and then so assume it must of been protected prior to us signing the AST.

Herbalus

I'm no expert, but I believe you can only protect a deposit for a tenant. And until you sign the tenancy agreement you are not a tenant. Therefore they have to protect your deposit after you sign the agreement, and the s21 if that's at the same time.

propertyman

Its an outdated practice when you did have to serve a notice prior to the tenacy being signed and one rendered invalid by the deposit if of course you take one.

I'd not leave it and explain to them to re serve it after the deposit is protected.

franklee

propertyman wrote: »

I'd not leave it and explain to them to re serve it after the deposit is protected.

Why would a tenant advise the agent/LL how to serve a valid S21 when the S21 is against the tenant's interests?

amy104, This S21 will likely used to bully you into signing another fixed term with a fee to the agent as it's isn't a good idea to stay on a periodic tenancy with a S21 hanging over you. Alternatively it may be used to remove you from the property more quickly as the LL can apply for a possession order as soon as the S21 notice period is up provided that's after the fixed term or when any break clause would allow the fixed term to be ended early. Therefore it's best for you if the S21 is invalid. It should not be served before the tenancy starts or before the deposit is protected AND deposit prescribed information given to you.

amy104 wrote: »

I'm aware if i don't sign they may not issue the tenancy, or they could just issue it after we moved in anyway so Im not sure if there is anything i can really do about it, just curious.

If they make you sign the AST first and then you refuse to sign the S21 so they threaten to cancel you've proved the tenancy hasn't started when the S21 was given to you. So you could then sign the S21 to be given the keys afterwards but how do you prove what happened?

Try to sign with date and time (add at agent's office if that's where you are) the S21 before you sign the tenancy agreement even if you're doing them in one batch. Pick both up sign S21 first and hand back together. Arguably if they are given to you at nearly the same time the tenancy hasn't started as you won't have been given keys before signing the AST and if it's all done at once in the agent's office you won't have entered the property so try to write down where you sign whatever would help reflect that.

Also you could write a covering email afterwards something like Dear xxx, When I was at your office last Wednesday to sign the S21, AST and pick up the keys I forgot to ask you where the instruction manual for the boiler is (or whatever you can make up as a question in the email). So you've established the S21 was served before you got the keys and entered the property - arguably before the tenancy started. If they answer your question you've established they got the email and didn't query it.

I'd avoid the crap agents who run these "Sword of Damocles" ruses but if there aren't many properties to choose from elsewhere that may be easier said than done. The other thing you can do is to make sure you get the landlord's address so should the agent try it on with renewal fees etc. you can contact the landlord directly.

G_M

Do not rock any boats or you may not get the tenancy at all.

Do not refuse to sign the S21. Just smile and sign!

Do not tell the LL/agent the S21 is invalid - just smile and sign.

The LL/agent will never know until (if) he tries to evict you - and finds his S21 is useless.

Enjoy your new home.