LL downstairs/leaking pipes- advice needed please

vigour3

Heres the situation:

two flats, both leasehold, one atop another, both flats rented to tenants.

As owners of the top flat we had a new bathroom fitted in feb and a new washing machine put in in march.

While the washing machine was being plumbed in there was a small (1 min spraying not pouring) leak. We mopped and stopped the leak immediately and had our regular maintenance contractor (who was there at the time it happened to check the bathroom was good) check it was all ok.

The downstairs tenant arrived to say 'a drip' of water came out her light fitting directly under the washing machine and that she thought she ought to come up and find out what was going on- we explained it was a small leak but that its all sorted.

Fast forward 3 months and we receive an angry call from downstairs LL claiming that we've damaged the ceilings in her flat... so at her insistence we go around (with our maintenance contractor) and indeed there IS water staining all over the ceiling of her flat.. however instead of a spot or two under where the washing machine, we find it doesnt start anywhere near the light fitting the drip came from, or our washing machine- it appears to follow an RSJ which adjoins the communal corridor several metres away and if anything creeps towards the kitchen area, not away.

Our contractor tells us theres no way that water came from our plumbing the washing machine, that you would need a bathtub full to make stains that bad, and were there any problems with the roof in the communal area?

Now- there ARE probs with the roof, causing puddles inside in the communal areas. We've documented them regularly, as have the flats on either side of us and either side of the flat below us (due to damage caused by water ingress). The FH management are notoriously cruddy at sorting problems but in an attempt at neighbourliness we contacted them.

They told us that they will repair damage to flats caused by the dodgy roof &water, but that the owner of the flat that is damaged would have to pay the excess, £500.

The LL downstairs has chosen to ignore all the evidence of puddles and leaks in communal areas and has not contacted the FH, instead choosing to go into our flat (after we asked her politely not to disturb our tenants without the 24hr notice period) and leave us several long, threatening voicemails regarding 'civil action' if we do not pay for all her repairs....

My partner spoke with the LL again today and she is insistent that its our toilet that leaked and that we are required by law to pay for the damage.

... i don't know what to do- i know we are not liable but this is SO stressful! I don't know why she won't contact the FH or why she is being so aggressive!

Does she really have recourse in the law?

I've tried to help her with some fact finding but she is making our lives really stressful and I am worried that my attempt to put her in touch with the FH has been seen as buck passing!

Any advice on how to proceed greatly appreciated.

grifferz

Okay so someone is claiming that your flat has leaked and damaged their flat. Your contractor does not believe this to be the case.

This is how I believe it works:

If there is damage to the flat below and they wish to have it made good, they can either pay for that directly or else claim against their own insurance for it.

After it is made good, if they paid for it themselves and believe that your property was the source of the leak then they could choose to request that you recompense them. If you refuse then they could sue you in court to get that compensation.

If their insurance company covered it, then their insurance company may try to recover costs from you by the same process (ask, followed by sue).

If you did decide to cover the costs of the third party, you may wish to claim on your insurance for that.

If I were you I'd probably just write to the other landlord something like:

I've had my contractor take a look and they don't believe there is any leak originating in my property. It's correct that there was a very small spillage of water a while back when a washing machine was being fitted, but this was in a completely different location and your tenant agreed with my employee at the time that there had been no damage to your property from this.

The freeholder admits there is a problem with the roof causing water ingress to common areas, and the damage to your property follows the line of an RSJ which enters into common areas. My contractor and I therefore agree that this is the most likely cause of the damage.

If you believe this is not correct please can you present me with some evidence that the leak originated from my property because as things stand I have to trust the assessment of my contractor. I'll be happy to look into anything you come up with.

Finally, I would be grateful if you could approach me directly rather than my tenant, as the matter is my responsibility, not theirs.

I would then ignore any further communication from them that was not in the form of some evidence that my contractor's assessment was mistaken.

They could certainly decide to sue you, but that would just mean they have to show a court the evidence that you already asked for, and it would reflect badly upon them if that was the first time they ever bothered to communicate that evidence.

If you've hired a professional and the professional says they don't believe it is your issue, then it seems entirely reasonable to me for you to trust that and to want some further evidence before taking any further action. Even if your contractor does later turn out to be wrong, you have behaved in a reasonable manner.

You are not required by law to cave in to every demand of money. They could sue you for it but they would need to prove their case. Based on facts provided by you, I don't see how they could do this.

G_M

It can be notoriously difficult to trace a leak's source. The water does not always (or even often) just flow directly vertically down - it will often follow beams (you mention a RSJ) or run along wiring before dripping onto a ceiling.

Having said that, it does sound like theprobem is above the communal areas, rather than your bathroom/washing machine.

I would write to downstairs, to confim in writing you have ben in contact with the freehold management company (enclose copy letter /reply) and deny responsibility.

Repeat (in writing) your suggestion that the lease owner/LL downstairs also contact the FMC.

Ignore voicemails (keep them though just in case this turns into a harrasment case!), and do not discuss on the phone. If LL rings and you answer, just politely say ask him to write, and then firmly say goodbye and hang up.

Don't be intimidated by legalthreats, even if he wastes his money paying a solicitor to write to you!

But DO keep chasing the FMC, and get other leaseholderson your side.

Puddles in communal areas should not be ignored. They will seriously affect the value of your flat!

Yorkie1

In addition to the above suggestions, have they repaired the damage yet? Any chance of getting photographic evidence of the water staining to prove the pattern / RSJ link? It would help your case if it ultimately did come to court?

vigour3

Well thank you all very much for your replies- the letter really was useful. After we took a deep breath, gathered all our evidence, put everything in writing ready in case a fight broke out, and then we sat tight.

Today the freeholder contacted the LL downstairs and explained that there was a problem etc etc (the freeholders contacting someone is practically unheard of so this is something of a miracle)... and today we found that we had a new voicemail from the downstairs LL apologising for all the ranting and raving and for her 'poor behaviour'.

I suppose sometimes that behaviour MUST work or she wouldn't have tried it, but its sad that we are grown adults and this still happens!

Thanks again for the advice- I make that celebratory Pimm's o'clock!