Chacel repair liability - what if church registers interest by Oct 2013?

skotak29

Hi there,

We are in the process of buying a property (a flat) and the seller has confirmed that there is a potential chancel repair liability. We have spoken to solicitor and he suggested that we need not worry as there is an insurance that covers us.

Now my question is, right now the property has potential liability; but what would happen if the church registers interest by Oct 2013? Would the insurance be still valid then or the insurance would stop covering us?

I spoke to the insurance company and they said they would asses at that point if the church registers interest. They said the insurance may cover us, we may have to buy another insurance or they may decide not to insure us any further. All would depend on the risks at that time.

Now that's quite worrying. Hence, I want to know if anyone is aware about the problem and if anyone knows what would happen to the insured properties if church registers the interest by Oct 2013

Thanks in advance for your replies.

LisaLou1982

No experience with this actually happening but i would be extremely surprised if the church registered liability!!

As far as i am aware i have never heard of it happening in recent years

bouicca21

How would anyone find out if the church has registered a claim? I know that some properties already have it on their deeds (the notorious Aston Cantlow did) but if a fresh entry is made, do the current owners get notified? The research involved is either dead simple or fiendishly complex. If it's one of the complex cases (which pose oodles of room for error) presumably there ought to be a right of challenge?

OP - potential liability as identified by a simply chancel search is often no liability at all. Look at the actual record of ascertainment yourself; the serch you have had done almost certianly only looked at the index: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/chancel-repairs.htm

Land_Registry

bouicca21 wrote: »

How would anyone find out if the church has registered a claim? I know that some properties already have it on their deeds (the notorious Aston Cantlow did) but if a fresh entry is made, do the current owners get notified? /QUOTE]

We have a Public Guide 25 which provides guidance on the registration of such interests (and others) in advance of October 2013.

As the guide explains registered proprietors of properties affected by such applications should receive notice if such an application is made. We have no information with regards whether any such applications will be made.

Always ensure that you address for service (the address(es) to which any notification would be sent) is up to date - see Public Guide 2

ConfusedCharlie

The Land Registry guidance is not that useful in reality.

We have just pulled out of a house purchase, at a loss of about £1500, as a search revealed the property has a potential to be liable for chancel repair.

If the law wasn't going to change in Oct. we may have proceeded, taking out protective insurance and like thousands of other homeowners hoping church clerics don't notice.

BUT now:
1. If church registers property as liable with Land registry by Oct 2013, then no insurance policy will provide cover and the property becomes worthless as you won't be able to sell it.
2. Even if they don't register by Oct, they have until the completion date of next sale after 13th Oct 2013 to register the property .... and then the property becomes worthless....
3. Even if you complete the sale after 13th Oct and there is no register with Land Registry of liability, the church (CoE) can STILL register the property as liable when property is inherited by our children.... making it worthless to them when they come to sell.

A. People say "don't worry about it - get insurance and nothing will happen". But the CoE are actively encourgaging Church councils as their legal obligation to find these properties and register them as a potential source of funding for now and the future (as per email I received from CoE church commissioner representative.
B. Funding for CoE churches (listed) has changed from English Heritage to Heritage Lottery this year and may be harder for churches to get funding for repairs.
C. Ironically, its likely that no church will call on local homeowners to pay up for repairs. BUT once the property is on the title deeds at the Land Registry, the property is unsaleable and worthless.
D. The reply from the CoE commission has asked us to provide them with the postcode and they will informally advise if the property is liable.
...BUT if it is we walk away, but the current owners will then be faced with a worthless property, which may not have been registered because the church didn't know about it.
E. A preliminary search at the National Archives suggests some area is liable, but haven't received a map to clarify the property(ies) details.
Even if you pay the National Archives £180 to do a full search, their records are not 100% complete/accurate. Moreover, the CoE churches have, if not financial resources, voluntary supporters searches records in order to obtain these sources of funding.

This is an insurance scam.... of course once the property is registered as liable there is no issue of insurance. ... you't won't then be able to get any!!

If the CoE churches would declare that they will never pursue homeowners for funds (and rely instead on listed building funding and community support from parishners) it would make life so much easier for everyone.

We're heart-broken at losing this house, after such a long search

bouicca21

If the record of ascertainment indicates a liability on specific plots of land in a parish, then the tithe map will indicate where they are. It can be difficult to line up the tithe map with a modern os map but it should be possible to do so sufficient to establish liability - or non-liability.

Quite often the record of ascertainment says no liability - one of these chancel repair companies indicated a liability on my late mother's house because the parish appeared in the index, but the actual record said no liability anywhere in the parish. Not surprising since it had been abolished by an enclosure act in 1815. Moreover the church commissioners accepted responsibility for the cost of repair when the chancel was repaired in the mid 1930s.

The fiendish search is if there is a rectorial tithe that has not been commuted. That one needs a professional search by an expert. And even then there is a substantial margin of error which i would have thought is likely to be interpreted in the house owner's favour.

spacey2012

Amazing in this day and age you can be forced to repair someone's temple to the sky fairies...

phoebe1989seb

ConfusedCharlie wrote: »

The Land Registry guidance is not that useful in reality.

We have just pulled out of a house purchase, at a loss of about £1500, as a search revealed the property has a potential to be liable for chancel repair.

If the law wasn't going to change in Oct. we may have proceeded, taking out protective insurance and like thousands of other homeowners hoping church clerics don't notice.

BUT now:
1. If church registers property as liable with Land registry by Oct 2013, then no insurance policy will provide cover and the property becomes worthless as you won't be able to sell it.
2. Even if they don't register by Oct, they have until the completion date of next sale after 13th Oct 2013 to register the property .... and then the property becomes worthless....
3. Even if you complete the sale after 13th Oct and there is no register with Land Registry of liability, the church (CoE) can STILL register the property as liable when property is inherited by our children.... making it worthless to them when they come to sell.

A. People say "don't worry about it - get insurance and nothing will happen". But the CoE are actively encourgaging Church councils as their legal obligation to find these properties and register them as a potential source of funding for now and the future (as per email I received from CoE church commissioner representative.
B. Funding for CoE churches (listed) has changed from English Heritage to Heritage Lottery this year and may be harder for churches to get funding for repairs.
C. Ironically, its likely that no church will call on local homeowners to pay up for repairs. BUT once the property is on the title deeds at the Land Registry, the property is unsaleable and worthless.
D. The reply from the CoE commission has asked us to provide them with the postcode and they will informally advise if the property is liable.
...BUT if it is we walk away, but the current owners will then be faced with a worthless property, which may not have been registered because the church didn't know about it.
E. A preliminary search at the National Archives suggests some area is liable, but haven't received a map to clarify the property(ies) details.
Even if you pay the National Archives £180 to do a full search, their records are not 100% complete/accurate. Moreover, the CoE churches have, if not financial resources, voluntary supporters searches records in order to obtain these sources of funding.

This is an insurance scam.... of course once the property is registered as liable there is no issue of insurance. ... you't won't then be able to get any!!

If the CoE churches would declare that they will never pursue homeowners for funds (and rely instead on listed building funding and community support from parishners) it would make life so much easier for everyone.

We're heart-broken at losing this house, after such a long search

I do feel for you losing the property you wanted to buy ConfusedCharlie - it seems to be a potential minefield what with the whole scam of chancel liability insurance.

We (perhaps foolishly) opted to not take out this insurance when we bought our current house in 2011, despite it being a period village house in a rural area with an ancient and decaying C of E church just up the road, but we took a gamble nonetheless.

In our case we were extremely fortunate in that we later discovered our Parochial Church Council objected so strongly to imposing this liability on the villagers (whether church-goers or not, they said) and felt that it was both unchristian and potentially damaging to the role of the church in local society. As a result they appealed to the Charity Commissioners on legal (as well as social) grounds, seeking exemption from pursuing villagers and in April this year their appeal was successful!

I don't know how common this is, and I know it's of absolutely no help to your situation OP, but thought it might be of interest to others to hear that in some areas the Parochial Church Councils are just as against this liability as the local residents.......

I know it's easy for me to say, but I sincerely hope you can put this experience behind you and go on to find a better property.....

katy89_2

I have just had my searches back and I too have this potential liability. I'm a first time buyer and quite worried about this.

I have an apt with the solicitor on Tuesday so I will be asking a few questions. I'm quite worried what this means for future saleability.

The house I have bought is on a small development about 14 year old and I love the house but i don't want to be stuck with something I can't sell on if it is placed on this list come 12th October.

Am I worrying too much about whether and interest is placed and what affect this means??? Or am I right to be really worried.

Thanks

ValHaller

skotak29 wrote: »

Hi there,

ConfusedCharlie wrote: »

We have just pulled out of a house purchase, at a loss of about £1500, as a search revealed the property has a potential to be liable for chancel repair.

katy89 wrote: »

I have just had my searches back and I too have this potential liability. I'm a first time buyer and quite worried about this.

All of you: Isn't the sane thing to postpone completion until after October 2013? Rather than run around doing impressions of Mr Glum?

4greenbottles

My has shown the same possibility on our searches, but with the policy costing £7-25 it seems silly not to take it. It's a chance you take if they register before Oct, but it's only weeks away and are they realistically be able to research, and register a claim before the deadline?