Great 'Your Green Deal Tips - was it worth it?' Hunt

Dave_Fowler

One thing you have to consider is the power of the boiler. I replaced an old 1980's boiler (~70% efficient) with a new condensing boiler two years ago and my bills went up. But this was because the new boiler is better matched to my house requirements. The old boiler was about 2/3rds the power of the new one and struggled to heat the house fully on a cold day. Perhaps the BG assessor is recommending a higher power boiler and hence, although it is more efficient, it will use proportionally more gas.

Dave F

Martyn1981

Hiya Dave, I think you're on to something. See this recent article about insulation, which is a little scary:

The energy efficiency 'savings' that are just hot air

Loft insulation will save you up to £180 a year, says the government – and a new boiler will cut as much as £310 off your bills. But the first official study on the true impact of energy efficiency measures installed in British households indicates that the financial savings have been around half the amount promised.

It's not easy getting your head around this article. The sample size seems large enough to exclude mistakes/misrepresentations. But since insulation (in particular) is a physics/mathematical fact, if fitted correctly, then the smaller than expected savings are surprising.

Whilst I'll admit to still being largely baffled as to the problem, my only suggestion is similar to yours above, that the properties are being maintained at a more comfortable level - now that they can - and therefore offset most of the savings.

Possibly (and similar to the point above) it might be a financial issue, people spending to a budget, so they still spend/consume the same, but have warmer properties as a result.

Since originally reading this article, I believe I've also seen articles/news that UK households are now maintaining higher temps in their properties than in the past. Perhaps we're getting a little softer?

Mart.

EricMears

Martyn1981 wrote: »

But since insulation (in particular) is a physics/mathematical fact, if fitted correctly, then the smaller than expected savings are surprising.

They're not quite so surprising when you realise how easy it is not to fit insulation correctly and how many don't take sufficient care.


Fitting insulation during the build sounds foolproof but it's all too easy to leave gaps around brick ties or not ensure that one piece of insulating material is properly abutted to its neighbour.


Retrofitting can have even more snags.


But don't let that put anyone off fitting insulation, just make sure it is fitted correctly.

ed110220

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya Dave, I think you're on to something. See this recent article about insulation, which is a little scary:

The energy efficiency 'savings' that are just hot air



It's not easy getting your head around this article. The sample size seems large enough to exclude mistakes/misrepresentations. But since insulation (in particular) is a physics/mathematical fact, if fitted correctly, then the smaller than expected savings are surprising.

Whilst I'll admit to still being largely baffled as to the problem, my only suggestion is similar to yours above, that the properties are being maintained at a more comfortable level - now that they can - and therefore offset most of the savings.

Possibly (and similar to the point above) it might be a financial issue, people spending to a budget, so they still spend/consume the same, but have warmer properties as a result.

Since originally reading this article, I believe I've also seen articles/news that UK households are now maintaining higher temps in their properties than in the past. Perhaps we're getting a little softer?

Mart.

This is probably what is going on and suggests that many people are not as warm as they would like to be in their homes.

The other thing I dislike and find confusing is how energy savings are usually quoted in pounds per year. Eg "replacing your G rated boiler will save you up to £x per year". This is very unhelpful as the actual saving will depend on how well your home retains heat and how warm you keep it. It would be much more logical and less misleading to give it as a percentage of current usage in order to maintain the same level of heating. For example "replacing your G rated boiler will save you about 33% of your gas bill" is much more informative.

Ed

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

... the properties are being maintained at a more comfortable level - now that they can - and therefore offset most of the savings ....


.... I believe I've also seen articles/news that UK households are now maintaining higher temps in their properties than in the past. Perhaps we're getting a little softer?

Hi

That's the real issue ... with GCH, the original sizing exercise for the radiators would have been for pre-insulation heat-loss. If you have the GCH thermostat in a non-living area such as the hall and don't have TRVs, especially upstairs, installing insulation changes the balance and some rooms will be proportionally warmer than before at whatever the central thermostat is set to .... I'd be almost certain that most people wouldn't have thought of re-balancing the radiator flow or addressing the thermostat setting ....

We don't tend to use our GCH much, but after major insulation improvements a number of years ago we found that when it was used some rooms became much warmer than necessary .... turning the hall thermostat down a little, fitting TRVs and reducing flow through some other radiators fixed this so that the relative comfort levels throughout the house were returned to where they were before the improvements .... balance restored, money saved ...

HTH
Z

zeupater

ed110220 wrote: »

This is probably what is going on and suggests that many people are not as warm as they would like to be in their homes.

The other thing I dislike and find confusing is how energy savings are usually quoted in pounds per year. Eg "replacing your G rated boiler will save you up to £x per year". This is very unhelpful as the actual saving will depend on how well your home retains heat and how warm you keep it. It would be much more logical and less misleading to give it as a percentage of current usage in order to maintain the same level of heating. For example "replacing your G rated boiler will save you about 33% of your gas bill" is much more informative.

Ed

Hi

I agree, there's not a 'one answer fits all' approach, but so many simply believe the figures without querying what they mean. The claimed savings prediction would be based on averaged gas usage, so 16500kWh/year .... however, reducing the usage 1650kWh/year wouldn't reduce the bill by 10% due to the fixed standing charge - the lower the usage compared to average, the lower a £%age saving you would achieve at any given heating or insulation efficiency gain.

For example, a low energy user on a SC tariff paying 4p/kWh + 25p/day(£91.25/year) StandingCharge using 5000kWh/year with a 60% efficient old boiler in a well insulated property would be paying £291.25/year ((5000x0.04)+£91.25) when moving to a 90% efficient boiler could mistakenly expect to reduce their annual bill to £194.17/year((291.25/90)*60), saving £97.08 (33%), whereas the real saving would be based on a new usage of 3333kWh/year at 4p/kWh, so £224.57 (((5000/90)*60*0.04)+91.25) ... so instead of a 33% saving on usage resulting in a cost reduction of 33% , the true cost saving %age is 22.9% ((224.57/291.25)-1), resulting in a bill which is 15.7% (224.57/194.17) higher than expected, which would, of course, be reflected in a higher DD (15.7%) than expected.

Don't even think about the percentage difference on our gas usage (~1000kWh/year) ....

HTH
Z

ed110220

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I agree, there's not a 'one answer fits all' approach, but so many simply believe the figures without querying what they mean. The claimed savings prediction would be based on averaged gas usage, so 16500kWh/year .... however, reducing the usage 1650kWh/year wouldn't reduce the bill by 10% due to the fixed standing charge - the lower the usage compared to average, the lower a £%age saving you would achieve at any given heating or insulation efficiency gain.

For example, a low energy user on a SC tariff paying 4p/kWh + 25p/day(£91.25/year) StandingCharge using 5000kWh/year with a 60% efficient old boiler in a well insulated property would be paying £291.25/year ((5000x0.04)+£91.25) when moving to a 90% efficient boiler could mistakenly expect to reduce their annual bill to £194.17/year((291.25/90)*60), saving £97.08 (33%), whereas the real saving would be based on a new usage of 3333kWh/year at 4p/kWh, so £224.57 (((5000/90)*60*0.04)+91.25) ... so instead of a 33% saving on usage resulting in a cost reduction of 33% , the true cost saving %age is 22.9% ((224.57/291.25)-1), resulting in a bill which is 15.7% (224.57/194.17) higher than expected, which would, of course, be reflected in a higher DD (15.7%) than expected.

Don't even think about the percentage difference on our gas usage (~1000kWh/year) ....

HTH
Z

Hi, I should have said gas usage not gas bill! Of course changes in energy prices, usually up, further complicate the picture and many - like my parents - only seem to keep track of the bill and not their usage.

All in all it seems as though improving energy efficiency is resulting in comfort and possibly health benefits, but not as much of a financial or environmental benefit as was hoped. Perhaps the assumption was people were heating their homes to the temperature they would like, rather than the temperature they could afford.

Ed

Coko_247

Last June I had a company called Get Green Today ltd. They took £349 off my credit card for an assessment. I was told it would be refunded when the works were done!! Someone visited the next week and took vague details of an assessment. Then in September I had another assessor from Lets Go Green who said the details were passed to them and apologized for delay. The assessor took specific measurements and left saying I would get a report about what works would go ahead. To date I have heard from neither company and they are not replying to my e-mails. What should I do? Has anyone had the same problem.:mad::(

EricMears

Coko_24/7 wrote: »

Last June I had a company called Get Green Today ltd. They took £349 off my credit card for an assessment.

If you've paid for something that cost more than £100 by credit card and are not satisfied with what you got (or didn't get !) then speak to you credit card company.


They are jointly liable for any losses you have incurred and a lot easier to trace than the company who took your money.

ladyandchloe

Has anyone had dealings with a company called Tivium Ltd from Gateshead who say they are Green Deal Assessors. I cancelled my assessment just a few days after I parted with a cheque for £299 and had been waiting months for my money to be returned. I eventually took them to the Small Claims Court and got my money back MINUS the £35 court fee which they are obliged to pay. So I have threatened them with taking them back to court. I have reads lots of complaints about this Company - I don't even think they are a registered Green Deal Assessor. Watch out!