All what?!

saverbuyer

motorguy wrote: »

Its all relative though isnt it? And i know quite a few people who've had a good grounding there and moved on to excellent jobs.

Apart from anything when theres a big recruitment drive by an organisation like this, it does open up the employment market up and maybe increase wages overall.

I know what you mean and I know a few myself who have moved on from this company to higher paid positions.

At the end of the day though, we shouldn't be aiming to attract these jobs that are effectively subsidised twice (once through Invest and long-term through tax credits). We should be aiming to attract much higher paid roles.

I don't think big drives like this raise wages as a whole no.

motorguy

saverbuyer wrote: »

At the end of the day though, we shouldn't be aiming to attract these jobs that are effectively subsidised twice (once through Invest and long-term through tax credits).

In an ideal world, no we wouldnt. But we're not in an ideal world.

saverbuyer wrote: »

We should be aiming to attract much higher paid roles.

And we (we as in Northern Ireland) do. Big players such as Allen & Overy are here now with very strong pay rates. Also, the 'average' salary is going to be £30K for those Allstate jobs. There'll be managers / senior managers / specialists on much more, hence giving people opportunities to progress.

saverbuyer wrote: »

I don't think big drives like this raise wages as a whole no.

I do and i've seen it work. Some years ago i was working for a software house who paid an 'average' wage. Another software house opened needing 100 staff and a load of us applied. The pay increase was worth 25% and 30+ offers were made to staff, myself included. Basically, to retain staff and remain competitive, the organisation i was with had to up their salaries to match.

Also, if Allstate arent paying more than people are on already, then people simply wont move, so they'll need that incentive of offering a bit more money. Now it might well be that Allstate only pay 'average', but there are people out there who are on less, so will move. Thus to remain competitive those organisations who can currently get away with paying below average wont be able to.

So yes, i see it as a good thing.

To be honest, you'd have to have a particularly negative outlook to see this as a bad thing (particularly given they've sites in Strabane and Londonderry) - 'only' 650 new jobs and 'only' paying an average of £30,000 a year - theres a world of people out there struggling on a lot less

saverbuyer

And we (we as in Northern Ireland) do. Big players such as Allen & Overy are here now with very strong pay rates. Also, the 'average' salary is going to be £30K for those Allstate jobs. There'll be managers / senior managers / specialists on much more, hence giving people opportunities to progress.

Allen and Overy Belfast provide back office functions. Basically out sourcing. They don't actually practise in this jurisdiction. Strong salaries, I think not. We probably have 200 law graduates every year.

Looking at job postings, Allstate are offering about 20k for software development specialists.

I know that senior developers will get paid more but there are only so many senior posts.

There must be about 400 computer science graduates each and every year. I imagine that part of the reason they have decided to increase the Derry workforce is because of easy access to cheap labour.

I don’t think this is a bad thing, I don’t like Invest subsiding a fortune 500 company’s profits but of course I welcome private money investing in NI. I just hope it is for the long-term.

motorguy

saverbuyer wrote: »

Allen and Overy Belfast provide back office functions. Basically out sourcing. They don't actually practise in this jurisdiction. Strong salaries, I think not. We probably have 200 law graduates every year.

You're equating back office = admin outsourcing. This is not the case. They have many support and legal functions here that are not client facing but handle work from across the world. For example, they have various IT functions based there now. Also, A&O have started moving fee earners to the belfast site too.

http://www.thelawyer.com/ao-widens-belfast-focus-with-fee-earner-injection/1010219.article

Lets not forget A&O are a massive global player who most definitely pay in the higher quartile.

saverbuyer wrote: »

Looking at job postings, Allstate are offering about 20k for software development specialists.

Starting Salary. Thats certainly not the top of the scale. Plus Coders are just the starting point. In any organisation theres a myriad of roles - both technical and management - above that. I would have thought the £30K was about average there. Being honest, anyone i know there is on that or significantly above it.

To back that up, heres a sample of what the big players are paying in Belfast, and as i've said, Allstate are 'average'.

http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=Belfast-Northern-Ireland%3A-Belfast/Salary/by_Employer

saverbuyer wrote: »

I know that senior developers will get paid more but there are only so many senior posts.

Hence why the likes of allstate are a good grounding for people. Get in, get the experience and move on. I'd also say there are quite a few posts over and above your standard developer. Even in my time in a software house you'd developers, senior developers, technical specialists / team leaders / project managers / senior project managers.

saverbuyer wrote: »

There must be about 400 computer science graduates each and every year. I imagine that part of the reason they have decided to increase the Derry workforce is because of easy access to cheap labour.

Easy access to labour full stop, not cheap labour. Theres a University up there so it should be easier to lure people into professional work in the area. Also, the pay bands will be the same no matter whether its Belfast, Londonderry or Strabane.

saverbuyer wrote: »

I don’t think this is a bad thing, I don’t like Invest subsiding a fortune 500 company’s profits but of course I welcome private money investing in NI. I just hope it is for the long-term.

As i said previously, they've been here 15 years, and are continuing to expand. There isnt enough local businesses expanding to this size, so i only see this as a good thing.

saverbuyer

You're equating back office = admin outsourcing. This is not the case. They have many support and legal functions here that are not client facing but handle work from across the world. For example, they have various IT functions based there now. Also, A&O have started moving fee earners to the belfast site too.

http://www.thelawyer.com/ao-widens-b...010219.article

Lets not forget A&O are a massive global player who most definitely pay in the higher quartile.

I'm not equating back office = admin outsourcing. I know what discovery work is. They are not priactising in N.I., it is all discovery work out/near sourced to N.I, employing low paid leagal graduates here instead of highly paid junior solicitors in London.

The new fee earners here are legal executives. Do you know how much legal executives get paid? Not £30,000 a year closer to £20,000. This is what the "magic circle" firms have been doing. Outsourcing the work which would have been performed by junior solicitors in London to low paid paralegals here.

Lets not forget A&O are a massive global player who most definitely pay in the higher quartile.

In London, not in their regional centres.

http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=Belfast-Northern-Ireland:-Belfast/Salary/by_Employer

Is the link above not for all jobs being advertised rather than the average salary at that company?

saverbuyer

Double post

motorguy

saverbuyer wrote: »

I'm not equating back office = admin outsourcing. I know what discovery work is. They are not priactising in N.I., it is all discovery work out/near sourced to N.I, employing low paid leagal graduates here instead of highly paid junior solicitors in London.

The new fee earners here are legal executives. Do you know how much legal executives get paid? Not £30,000 a year closer to £20,000. This is what the "magic circle" firms have been doing. Outsourcing the work which would have been performed by junior solicitors in London to low paid paralegals here.

Thats certainly not what i have seen with them. They were paying circa £40,000 for an IT Team leader which is not to be sniffed at for whats an entry level management job. Also, they'd a couple of contract IT positions paying £300-350 a day for six months. Those were the couple of touchpoints i've had with them.

So certainly from the IT side - which is the context in which we are talking here - they seem to pay well. Also, as per the link, they are now starting to employ true fee earners here, which can only be a good thing - or have you issue with that as well.

saverbuyer wrote: »

Is the link above not for all jobs being advertised rather than the average salary at that company?

Yeah its the payband that that company offers in its external jobs. The higher earning jobs most companies will recruit from within or wont publish salaries in adverts. Allstate are clearly in the 'middle' of that, as opposed to just paying £20K a year for the majority of its staff which you seemed to be suggesting.

Again, i'm really surprised at your negativity. External investment is what we need here and there are some massive players here now. As they expand and recruit that can only be a good thing for the market as a whole, increasing choice and wages.

Of course maybe you're a powerfully built company director for whom the figures quoted here is peanuts, and all you're employees are on six figure salaries?

warmhands.coldheart

Way I look at it is, as a province we have to take the jobs when we can, whatever they are as it's only a matter of time before another country/region comes along and offers an equally trained workforce for half the price.....

motorguy

warmhands.coldheart wrote: »

Way I look at it is, as a province we have to take the jobs when we can, whatever they are as it's only a matter of time before another country/region comes along and offers an equally trained workforce for half the price.....

+1

Its not as if we, as a province, can afford to be sniffy about the jobs we want and dont want here.

maveli

Good news for NI and a good company to work for. But not enough skilled IT professionals in NI