omg csa fraud

jimbo4468_2

some time ago i wrote regarding csa having calculated i owed £547.00 but payments were missed by old employer resulting in CSA oweing me £2600. well Having me call them at reg intervals it Now Appears that I OWE the CSA £7000???????? !!!!!! pardon the expression.
However as soon as i mention Court and Fraud they hurridly rush to end convo> any advice? or should i just go legal?

Sensemaya

Hi Jimbo

All this is horribly familiar to me too although I'm a PWC.

I haven't read your other posts so have you got a complete account breakdown from day one of your case?

Put any complaints in yet?

Got your MP involved?

Before you go legal...I suggest you phone Stephen Lawson up for a chat as it gets very expensive...it would be best to start complaining via MP...yes here I go again advising peeps go to their MPs, sorry folks, esp prelude;).

Can you fill us in with a brief history in this thread?

Thanks.

Edit: Link to Stephen Lawson. I can highly recommend him...

http://www.qualitysolicitors.com/fdr/our-team/stephen-lawson

jimbo4468_2

hi Sensemeya, its actually going through MP that got to this result. in short.....
oct 2012 letter saying finalising case
nov 2012 call saying arrears of £547.
dec 2012 recieved statement showing payments missed by prev employer.
result in overpayment by me of £2600
Csa refused any further comment
Jan 2013 MP contacted.
Jan 2013 letter recieved claiming CSA HAD recieved outstanding from employer and arrears still stand.
feb 2013 Previous employer admitted to failing to send payments and offers FULL settlement.
feb 2013 CSA refuse employers offer.
april 2013 CSa claim arrears owed by ME to be £7000.

as of 2010 i became PWC.
Children were Placed in Care from 2006-2010 without my Knowledge and were handed over after court case involving social serv aditting failure to contact.

kevin137

Forgive me for sounding stupid...

But are they claiming child support for the period of 2006-10...??? Just curious...

And did they claim that just from you if they did, or did they claim from the EX as well...???

If they are or where claiming responsibility for them, then i would threaten legal action against the secretary of state for not supporting there children while in your care...!!! See how they like that, i mean 1 child at 15% could make for a very interesting court case against them if social services failed to notify you as a father that the children had indeed been taken into care, and once they accept responsibility for them is that not the same as being a parent...???

If nothing else, i would seriously consider legal action just to bring a major miscarriage of justice and misuse of CSA and social services that has resulted in this result...!!! The papers would be the place to start i would think...!

Sensemaya

jimbo4468 wrote: »

hi Sensemeya, its actually going through MP that got to this result. in short.....
oct 2012 letter saying finalising caseso case is finished? When?
nov 2012 call saying arrears of £547.
dec 2012 recieved statement showing payments missed by prev employer.
result in overpayment by me of £2600
Csa refused any further commentNaughty of them so then you wisely involved your MP
Jan 2013 MP contacted.Excellent.What else has your MP done to help you? Did the CSA provide you with a officer from the Parliamnetary Business Unit or whatever their title is now?
Jan 2013 letter recieved claiming CSA HAD recieved outstanding from employer and arrears still stand.
feb 2013 Previous employer admitted to failing to send payments and offers FULL settlement.
feb 2013 CSA refuse employers offer.
april 2013 CSa claim arrears owed by ME to be £7000.

as of 2010 i became PWC.
Children were Placed in Care from 2006-2010 without my Knowledge and were handed over after court case involving social serv aditting failure to contact.

So just what is your MP doing and what do they think of the CSA's behaviour? Any complaint action started or is this just figures going backwards and forwards?

More importantly has the case finished?

It appears to me ( having been subject to numerous account breakdowns some within days of each other of wildly different figures...I was owed £££ then I had had been overpaid £££ etc ) they don't know what they are doing.

Please give Stephen Lawson a ring. I'm just concerned you haven't gone through the complaints process yet. But he can advise you.

kevin137

I don;t know where in law it states that you MUST use the complaints procedure, if you have figures on an assessment, and you believe you have seriously overpaid, then rework your figures, make sure they are accurate, and then take them to court, they then have to prove to court that the money is not owed, it is really that simple...!!!

Why MUST you follow the complaints procedure...??? You can also attach interest lost at base rate + 3% through the courts, and all expenses...!!! They may choose to ignore they may not even turn up, but once judgement it entered, then they have to answer through an appeal against the ruling or PAY...!!! If your figures are deemed correct and they still persist in chasing you through the normal CSA channels, then seek an injunction for harassment. In the same court...

I just don't get why people use the hard way when there is already a legal system set up for collecting a debt...!

Sensemaya

kevin137 wrote: »

I don;t know where in law it states that you MUST use the complaints procedure, if you have figures on an assessment, and you believe you have seriously overpaid, then rework your figures, make sure they are accurate, and then take them to court, they then have to prove to court that the money is not owed, it is really that simple...!!!Sorry to disagree with you, kevin, on this one. It is not as simple as that.

Why MUST you follow the complaints procedure...??? You can also attach interest lost at base rate + 3% through the courts, and all expenses...!!! They may choose to ignore they may not even turn up, but once judgement it entered, then they have to answer through an appeal against the ruling or PAY...!!! They can ask for it to be set aside and we back to square 1. Been there... If your figures are deemed correct but are they? and they still persist in chasing you through the normal CSA channels, then seek an injunction for harassment. Harassment of the debtor?In the same court...

I just don't get why people use the hard way when there is already a legal system set up for collecting a debt...!

Being in business myself I have used the SCC to collect unpaid monies, so I do know all about it - and how people can abuse it, but that's a different story.

There are too many scenarios to explain on here ie say no response from CSA after letter before action etc, fails to turn up in court, default judgement, CSA decides to set aside etc. EDIT: Forgot to mention the CSA could have case transferred miles away from OPs home town. Ouch! The jduge could set directions et al. Cases can drag on - one of mine went on for 18 months.

Back to the CSA. Let's say the OP v CSA are in court. They have followed the rules. The judge will expect them to have tried previously to come to an agreement. The claimant will have to prove his case. It's no good just coming up with a set of figures the claimant believes to be correct. Account breakdowns ( and especially in the OP's case) are difficult enough to understand. Heaven knows I couldn't and a friend of mine, forensic accountant, couldn't either. Indeed I think the CSA gave up with mine and just wiped the slate clean because they didn't understand it all either.

The CSA complaints procedure is there to give the CSA a chance to put things right. If they can't then go to court. This has only been ongoing since Oct 2012. Very short space of time in CSA land.

To jimbo - don't pay them a penny at the moment. But we need more info.

Another edit: Sorry about all these edits. Stephen Lawson won't touch a CSA case if no complaint procedure has been gone through. I took the CSA to JR with Mr Lawson. We won too.

kevin137

I did mine myself because i just got fed up with there attitude, having written to them regarding an expired DEO 3 times, having written to my employer 3 times, and them all saying they had a LEGAL means of deducting money, remembering that in every letter there was a complaint for overpayment, i had enough, sought and got an injunction, and claimed the overpayment back, which was set aside when it eventually got to court as cleared due to non payment while the injunction was in place...

RULED IN MY FAVOUR but debt cleared.

3 months later, having already left the country to live aborad with no employment in the UK, and the CSA having been notified and ordered by the same court to use the correct address in Norway, they sought and got an LO against me for the debt that had been deemed settled by the court, and obtained the LO using an address in the UK which i was no longer living at and had been ordered not to use by the court...

And literally, with NO correspondence from me, 3 days after the LO was obtained, they wrote to me at the correct address in Norway telling me the case was now closed with a debt remaining of £xxxx amount which they would continue to chase...!!!

And would you believe that i have NO way of complaining on a closed case...? How does that work...

I am now working on obtaining a 2nd injunction against them for using the LO against me, i cannot appeal the LO as i don't live in the country and have to have a UK address to do so, however i do not need a UK address to obtain an injunction, and i only need to prove that they did not notify me, that they ignored a courts order to not use that address and that the money claimed in the LO was settled already. Once the injunction is in place i can in reality keep it indefinitely or until they withdraw the LO and once they have done that, then they cannot apply for another as they will not be able to serve me as per the injunction settlement i shall obtain...

I will do this myself, as i have done everything else myself, and i shall make there lives hell for fighting me like this, i shall also have a claim for costs incurred which will run into the £1000's which can be added into the cost of applying for the injunction...

Never say never, it is a matter of how far you are willing to let them push you before you fight back... And i will fight for as long as it takes to make them look stupid...!

Sensemaya

kevin137 wrote: »

I did mine myself because i just got fed up with there attitude, having written to them regarding an expired DEO 3 times, having written to my employer 3 times, and them all saying they had a LEGAL means of deducting money, remembering that in every letter there was a complaint for overpayment, i had enough, sought and got an injunction, and claimed the overpayment back, which was set aside when it eventually got to court as cleared due to non payment while the injunction was in place...

RULED IN MY FAVOUR but debt cleared.

Had to read this a few times but understand what you did.But debt cleared to the penny?

3 months later, having already left the country to live aborad with no employment in the UK,so no CSA jurisdiction and the CSA having been notified and ordered by the same court to use the correct address in Norway, they sought and got an LO against me for the debt that had been deemed settled by the court, and obtained the LO using an address in the UK which i was no longer living at and had been ordered not to use by the court...Did you not take this up with the court?

And literally, with NO correspondence from me, 3 days after the LO was obtained, they wrote to me at the correct address in Norway telling me the case was now closed with a debt remaining of £xxxx amount which they would continue to chase...!!!

And would you believe that i have NO way of complaining on a closed case...? How does that work...Why can't the court throw it out? Surely it's unlawful.

I am now working on obtaining a 2nd injunction against them for using the LO against me, i cannot appeal the LO as i don't live in the country and have to have a UK address to do so, however i do not need a UK address to obtain an injunction, and i only need to prove that they did not notify me, that they ignored a courts order to not use that address and that the money claimed in the LO was settled already. Once the injunction is in place i can in reality keep it indefinitely or until they withdraw the LO and once they have done that, then they cannot apply for another as they will not be able to serve me as per the injunction settlement i shall obtain...

I will do this myself, as i have done everything else myself, and i shall make there lives hell for fighting me like this, i shall also have a claim for costs incurred which will run into the £1000's which can be added into the cost of applying for the injunction... Second you on that. Screw them for every penny.

Never say never, it is a matter of how far you are willing to let them push you before you fight back... And i will fight for as long as it takes to make them look stupid...!

I fought them too. I never gave up. But remember you do not make an organisation's life hell. Think of the strain on ourselves - we are their clients. The staff are just puppets doing what the machine wants them to do -and then more over with maladminstration, apathy and incompetence. Yes those 3 words sum them up nicely.

How I hate the CSA.

Feel a bit better now saying that.

Keep up the fight.:T

kevin137

They owed about £150 when it eventually got to court, and it was not worth arguing over what was essentially pennies, so the court agreed the debt settled and they had to agree as well... Or so i thought...

CSA didn't have Jurisdiction about 3 months prior to the actual court case as i moved permanently then, i notified the court of the change of address it was accepted and notified to the other side... But i had lived in Norway for 2 years, i commuted to the UK for work during that period...

By the time i actually found out that the LO was granted, i had no way of appealing...

The court CAN issue an injunction, but they cannot over rule another court on a different order, just pass it back...

Sensemaya

kevin137 wrote: »

They owed about £150 when it eventually got to court, and it was not worth arguing over what was essentially pennies, so the court agreed the debt settled and they had to agree as well... Or so i thought...

CSA didn't have Jurisdiction about 3 months prior to the actual court case as i moved permanently then, i notified the court of the change of address it was accepted and notified to the other side... But i had lived in Norway for 2 years, i commuted to the UK for work during that period...

By the time i actually found out that the LO was granted, i had no way of appealing...Why didn't you just send a copy of the ruling into the court to show the LO was unlawful. Pretty sure the court would throw it out.

The court CAN issue an injunction, but they cannot over rule another court on a different order, just pass it back...

As you are living in Norway permanently ( wish I could move out of the UK permanently) and have no intention of coming back to the UK why are you bothering?

What gets me is that after my first case ended the NRP owes the SofS circa 13-14K due to various advance payments I received. The case officer dealing with my ICE complaint found out they were not going to chase him for this large sum of money as it was classed as 'low priory'. BUT when they decided I have been overpaid -indeed according to their latest account breakdowns on both my cases ( got it ALL wiped off eventually) they were hellbent on collecting it from me alright.

And what amused me the most is that I was told the account breakdowns used for my Judicial Review were wrong too!!!:rotfl:

Complete and utter IDIOTS.

Whether they are chasing him for the money I've no idea. One letter stated they were going to, but they are such liars you don't know what to believe.

Such hypocrisy...

Any progress, jimbo? Sorry to have gone off track here.