Local Government Pension Scheme and Private Pension

hyubh

FatherAbraham wrote: »

In other words, the cleaner will retire on 103% of what was earned whilst working -- amazing!

At the risk of stating the obvious, it's 103% because the pay is so low, making the basic state pension a signficant element of the post-retirement income. Further, whether the (hypothetical, given part time working and historical restrictions on 'manual workers') 2/3 final salary LGPS pension is reasonable or not is a question surely relative to whether it was paid for with contributions and fund investment growth over the previous 40 years.

Naturally, there will be employer contributions involved here - the LGPS is an occupational pension scheme after all. Nonetheless, employer rates weren't that high until relatively recently. Further, in a cleaner's case, the fact the pension will be 'final salary' won't be a big deal in itself, given cleaners' rate of pay doesn't experience the inflation over their working lives that people on higher grades enjoy.

You're arguing that people on low wages cannot ever be "fat cats". You're missing the point that those who work for the state are being massively overpaid, once pension rights are considered, compared to those in the private sector doing similar or identical low-value jobs.

'Once pension rights are considered' - I think decent occupational pensions are a good thing. Don't you?

If you deeply care about improving the incomes of poor workers, the way to do it is not to create some lucky, privileged class of overpaid "public sector workers", whilst leaving the rest to hang. That makes no social sense at all.

Who said anything about leaving poorly paid private sector workers 'to hang'?

I can't see the relevance of my earnings to this matter in any way, shape or form.

You are claiming certain groups of people haven't earned in a moral sense their earnings in an economic one. As such, it would be interesting to see whether the same might be said about your own pay - people in glass houses and all that.

Further, I admit - I have difficulties with someone who is paid a lot more claiming that those on a lot less are 'overpaid' in anything other than an amoral economic sense (not that there's anything wrong as such with amoral economic reasoning). If that turns out not to be the case here however, then plainly, your position would become to me just a passionately argued principled one rather than what it currently appears as.

Sorry if that enrages you, but no true socialist would support a system where a special in-group is able to enrich itself at the expense of other workers.

'Socialist'? Haven't been called that before! Moreover, I'm not sure how it is me who is 'enraged' after this, er 'very passionate' post of yours...

SkyandSun

In general when people are having a go at those who earn £15k a year and arguing that they're overpaid, in any form, it reminds me of the Daily Mail.

Cleaning jobs (and customer service eg in Costa) looks like very hard work to me and often demorilising. Just because it is not valued so much in terms of pay, doesn't mean it's not valuable work and I feel a lot of people earning a lot more - including most of the government, from what I can see - would learn a lot by trying out the jobs of those people that others are quick to demonise and attack.

Also on topic, I have been advised to take the LGPS and leave my private pension alone - but that taking the LGPS before retirement age brings with it a heavy hit so it's probably worth waiting, if I can.

woolly_wombat

SkyandSun wrote: »

Also on topic, I have been advised to take the LGPS and leave my private pension alone - but that taking the LGPS before retirement age brings with it a heavy hit so it's probably worth waiting, if I can.

That would certainly give you the flexibility to take the private pension earlier, to fill the gap before lgps and state pensions kick in.

It's what I plan to do when I leave my poorly paid school support staff position (science technician).

WW

FatherAbraham

Southend1 wrote: »

But then I know from your posts on other threads that you have a deep disrespect for the working class.

On the contrary, it's because I have so much respect for those who work that I find the excessive earnings (when their pension entitlements are taken into accoutn) of public-sector workers unjust.

Southend1 wrote: »

The fact that you think someone earning £15k a year is overpaid or a "fat cat" beggars belief.

It's only difficult for you to understand why anyone would think that because you're refusing to consider the value of the work performed by that person, and furthermore, entirely discounting the value of the pension earned. A public-sector working is being paid far more than the headline £15k rate, because of the enormous pension bennies accrued.

Remember that public-sector pensions are also not limited to those doing low-value jobs.

Southend1 wrote: »

Have you tried living on £15k a year?

Have you ever worked as a cleaner for minimum wage?

Since the point I'm making, which so enrages you, is about the relative earnings of people in the public and private sectors, doing similar jobs, these questions remain irrelevant.

Why not see what the Guardian had to say about excessive public-sector pensions a couple of days ago? http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/blog/2013/apr/27/pensions-system-failed-what-answer

But I'm wasting my time, aren't I? You're not really interested in the unfairness of public-sector pensions, or how a privileged group is ripping off normal workers by being excessively compensated for the work they do.

Southend1 wrote: »

These are often part time jobs where people have to work 3 or 4 jobs just to get by, rising early and getting home late.

I think people who do hard, often dirty, and undervalued work like cleaning, social care, catering etc deserve more respect. And they shouldn't be begrudged £15k a year and a pension by those who landed a bit more luck in their careers and don't even notice the office cleaner.

Irrelevant points, since the discussion is about the difference between people doing similar jobs in private and public sector.

Warmest regards,
FA