Which probiotic supplements should I buy?

A.Penny.Saved

Fire_Fox wrote: »

You won't get billions of viable organisms in live yoghurt, millions if you are lucky. Good for maintaining gut health but not repopulating the gut.

Have you tested this yourself? Your being very unspecific, as unspecific as the supplement manufacturers blurb where you saw that, where I suspect you failed to read the fine print merely taking in the unsubstantiated information as fact without thinking about it for more than a second. Compared to how much ?natural? yoghurt? 1 litre? 100ml? 1ml? Identical volume? A capsule volume or weight - most likely! Comparing freeze dried ie water removed to a natural state and then claiming that there are more cells present in the supplement makes for the perfect sales pitch to unsuspecting individuals who do no further research, such as yourself and do not read any of the research, if there is any. It's utter rubbish IMO. A well produced yoghurt will be very considerably stronger than any probiotic capsule!

This is the usual line put out by supplement manufacturers who want to sell their products and I didn't accept it as truth. I therefore tested the idea myself by culturing supplemental probiotics from a number of different manufacturers supplied in capsule form. A capsule in a small quantity of cold chlorine free water to reconstitute and preventing heat stress prior to starting culturing/fermenting. Afterwards cultured in the same way under the same conditions except for using one capsule making 1x195ml pot which took as long as 24 hours to reach a set yoghurt state. Other capsules such as Culturelle GG with 20 billion viable cells at the time of use took 14 to 16 hours. I threw out a fair bit due to the length of time it was taking, thinking that they were not multiplying. They did, eventually. Freeze drying alone can disrupt cells and especially when re-constituted when they are prone to heat stress which is why I re-constituted in cold filtered water to maximize the number of cells. However after doing that it still took an age to produce one yoghurt! That just goes to show how strong a real yoghurt is, considerably stronger than any probiotic capsule.

One set I used were Culturelle Lactobacillus GG which is widely studied and has been patented. This one has 20 billion viable cells at the time of USE and not manufacturer.

http://www.culturelle.com/about_culturelle/culturelle_vs_others

Whereas approximately 2/5ths of a pot of yoghurt, just under 3 floz of yoghurt used as a starter producing 1.4 ltr (7 pots) of yoghurt, reaches a set state in approx 3 to 3.5 hours. Plenty of milk powder aids setting and so does some FOS. Boiling the milk is essential for success.

Seeing as the set time is directly related to the number of initial bacteria, that bacteria counts can double every ten minutes, which sounds the strongest in reality?........the natural yoghurt! It's an absurd notion IMO that a tiny capsule is anywhere near as strong as a pot of yoghurt. I think this is a misrepresented idea where the fine print was never read. My testing suggests that 1 capsule maybe stronger than the same weight/volume as 1 capsule of natural yoghurt, which is fairly obvious seeing as freeze dried bacteria have the water removed, but IT IS NOT stronger than the average size pot of yoghurt! Saying "this capsule is stronger than live natural yoghurt" without giving quantities is just a totally useless blurb that the interested parties would like people to believe, without questioning. In your case, it worked! If my yoghurt has a limited amount of Viable cells, they would not repeatedly reproduce on successive batches and they wouldn't vastly outperform the supplement manufacturers best capsules and they wouldn't have the dramatic health improvements that I have experienced over the last 4-5 months.

Yoghurt has been in use for around 1000 years and supplement manufacturers have not bettered it. The defined strains are the only real benefit and I take advantage of that to produce a much cheaper AND stronger version of my own. All for the cost of a yoghurt maker @ around £30, some powered milk@£1.01 for 400g@sainsburys. Some filtered water and I often use a little FOS to speed things up which I also did with the capsule cultures so no unfair advantages. Compare that to approx £1.80 at sainsburys for their 1Kg natural yoghurt with undefined cultures. I use 360g of milk powder to make approx 3.4 litres of yoghurt in one go, boiling the milk to sterilize and alter the milk proteins in order to make them set better.

I have been making yoghurt for well over 5 years and have tried many methods and starters. My best personal results have come by using XtraLac capsules. I have tried many different starters, including the widely studied L. rhamnosus GG and nothing worked as well for the reason I take it than the XtraLac yoghurt. I put that down to Bacillus Subtilis which is highly recommended for all fermenting tasks, especially food such as Soya Beans and vegetables. L. Plantarum is another which benefits me and helps to maintain the gut lining integrity by producing a mucin that helps protect the digestive system. Bacillus Coagulans has twice the quantity than the next quantity bacteria in XtraLac which is L. Plantarum, however I do not know how beneficial B.C. has been. It's meant to be effective against yeast and it can lower high cholesterol, however those are unknown quantities for me because there is very little to suggest it's a problem, I don't have high cholesterol, if anything it is quite low when it was tested late last year. Something in it is getting the required result and I haven't been as well in the last 20 years. Still a little way to go but certainly getting closer by the day.

FructoOligoSaccharides (FOS hence on), speed up a yoghurt finish time and are well known to facilitate the growth of probiotic bacteria.

Fibre is the other aspect to consider because bacteria break down the fibre and produce many of the beneficial substances that provide the health benefits. However, be careful. Taking bacteria with pure cellulose fibre can be very uncomfortable, they break it down and produce a lot of gas which is very bloating and uncomfortable. It feels like the stomach is going to explode! Needless to say, I don't recommend you try it unless you want to share the experience.

lostinrates wrote: »

Firefox, can I ask about the hospitable environment thing?

I am taking the yogurt type probiotic drinks ATM. But I find for them to work I have to take more than one, and twice a day. (So with each meal). The pill type from h and B. (which I would prefer) don't seem to have any impact.

Is this, and the need to take more than once a day, likely to be a GIT environment issue? ( I know you cannot advice specifically I am just wondering if it could be the reason)

I think you have proven it for yourself, the pills you took are either no where near as strong as the yoghurt or the bacteria are not providing any noticeable benefit and those yoghurts are fairly small from what I have seen. What is their size? However the bacteria and strains can also be a factor as some provide more noticeable effects. You would probably be better off buying a yoghurt making machine and producing your own and having one or possibly two larger pots per day. It would work out cheaper, this is a money savings site after all.

Getting some FOS will improve how well the bacteria work by improving their reproduction, ie greater numbers. Biocare make/sell FOS and it is available from other online Biocare suppliers. I usually get it from Vitshop. FOS tastes pleasantly sweet so is nice to use as a sweetener with breakfast such as oats or cereal with yoghurt to contribute to the whole effect. Eating an insoluble fibre source is beneficial to take along with probiotics. Breakfast cereals can provide this.

For immune stimulation, a simple supermarket yoghurt, I used Sainsburys and/or Aldi yoghurts and they worked extremely well for me and I never got a cold or flu while taking some each morning. That was a massive improvement in immune function because I was always getting colds and flu before I started eating yoghurt. However that was only a symptom to a bigger problem which the common probiotic bacteria never solved. It wasn't until I started XtraLac yoghurt at the start of this year that things really started to improve.

Usually insoluble fibre as already mentioned will also help by providing what the bacteria break down to produce the short chain fatty acids which benefit your health. Probiotics break down food, produce vitamins, controlling the immune system function, both stimulating and retarding it in a finely balanced way.

Making your own yoghurt means you can tailor it to your bodies needs, take the most appropriate bacteria which benefit you. I recommend Bacillus Subtilis and L. Plantarum in particular as beneficial to everyone. Add anything else as required.

I have one yoghurt maker ATM, a Moulinex model which works fairly well. I am considering getting another yoghurt maker so I can make more in one go. I have been thinking of this one
http://www.tribest.co.uk/Yoghurt-and-Soya-Milk-Makers/Yolife
Which is cheaper if buying the spare parts £44.95 delivered compared to £24.98 for the parts. This one has a large hood for use with larger jars.
http://www.tribest.co.uk/Spare-Parts/Yolife-Spare-Parts

khampson wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Found these at a decent price what are your thoughts

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Protexin-Bio-Kult-Advanced-Probiotic-Capsules/dp/B004SH1PAU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366305912&sr=8-1&keywords=probiotic

http://www.simplysupplements.net/product/244/probiotic-max/

Or are there better probiotics on the market for the money?

Thanks again

To me, Bio Kult looks fairly good because it has Bacillus Subtilis and L. Plantarum two bacteria which are of benefit altough subtilis is not a permenent resident.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23574328

It's best to read the research on probiotics to find out what they do which might benefit you.

j.e.j. wrote: »

sorry to jump on your thread, but are these probiotic supplements good for counteracting the side-effects of taking antibiotics?

You would be best off taking either a very strong supplement or plenty of yoghurt to restore the balance. Biocare make the best called Replete Intensive with 130 billion cells per sachet. I've tried it and it tastes okay, you mix it with water, warm preferably.

http://www.biocare.co.uk/default.aspx?GroupGuid=29&ProductGuid=30507

The moral of the story, well prepared Yoghurt is always best!

lostinrates

As my saved, I am a big yoghurt fan, and have a yoghurt maker already which I can dig out, I have never tried to tailor the bacteria though, I have to admit I just use the sachets to make yoghurt.

But much as I like yoghurt I am finding a particularly marked response to the yogurt drinks.....but I would like to get this benefit without the calories from the yoghurt drinks if possible.

clairibel

I've tried loads of different of supplements and even yoghurt and kefir but none helped as much as Biokult probiotics on Amazon, I have been on them 5 months now and no bloating or itchy skin issues anymore which have gradually cleared. But I'm not an expert and everyone's different

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Protexin-Bio-Kult-Advanced-Probiotic-Capsules/dp/B004SH1PAU/ref=pd_sim_d_1

Fire_Fox

A.Penny.Saved wrote: »

Have you tested this yourself? Your being very unspecific, as unspecific as the supplement manufacturers blurb where you saw that, where I suspect you failed to read the fine print merely taking in the unsubstantiated information as fact without thinking about it for more than a second. Compared to how much ?natural? yoghurt? 1 litre? 100ml? 1ml? Identical volume? A capsule volume or weight - most likely! Comparing freeze dried ie water removed to a natural state and then claiming that there are more cells present in the supplement makes for the perfect sales pitch to unsuspecting individuals who do no further research, such as yourself and do not read any of the research, if there is any. It's utter rubbish IMO. A well produced yoghurt will be very considerably stronger than any probiotic capsule!

This is the usual line put out by supplement manufacturers who want to sell their products and I didn't accept it as truth. I therefore tested the idea myself by culturing supplemental probiotics from a number of different manufacturers supplied in capsule form. A capsule in a small quantity of cold chlorine free water to reconstitute and preventing heat stress prior to starting culturing/fermenting. Afterwards cultured in the same way under the same conditions except for using one capsule making 1x195ml pot which took as long as 24 hours to reach a set yoghurt state. Other capsules such as Culturelle GG with 20 billion viable cells at the time of use took 14 to 16 hours. I threw out a fair bit due to the length of time it was taking, thinking that they were not multiplying. They did, eventually. Freeze drying alone can disrupt cells and especially when re-constituted when they are prone to heat stress which is why I re-constituted in cold filtered water to maximize the number of cells. However after doing that it still took an age to produce one yoghurt! That just goes to show how strong a real yoghurt is, considerably stronger than any probiotic capsule.

One set I used were Culturelle Lactobacillus GG which is widely studied and has been patented. This one has 20 billion viable cells at the time of USE and not manufacturer.

http://www.culturelle.com/about_culturelle/culturelle_vs_others

Whereas approximately 2/5ths of a pot of yoghurt, just under 3 floz of yoghurt used as a starter producing 1.4 ltr (7 pots) of yoghurt, reaches a set state in approx 3 to 3.5 hours. Plenty of milk powder aids setting and so does some FOS. Boiling the milk is essential for success.

Seeing as the set time is directly related to the number of initial bacteria, that bacteria counts can double every ten minutes, which sounds the strongest in reality?........the natural yoghurt! It's an absurd notion IMO that a tiny capsule is anywhere near as strong as a pot of yoghurt. I think this is a misrepresented idea where the fine print was never read. My testing suggests that 1 capsule maybe stronger than the same weight/volume as 1 capsule of natural yoghurt, which is fairly obvious seeing as freeze dried bacteria have the water removed, but IT IS NOT stronger than the average size pot of yoghurt! Saying "this capsule is stronger than live natural yoghurt" without giving quantities is just a totally useless blurb that the interested parties would like people to believe, without questioning. In your case, it worked! If my yoghurt has a limited amount of Viable cells, they would not repeatedly reproduce on successive batches and they wouldn't vastly outperform the supplement manufacturers best capsules and they wouldn't have the dramatic health improvements that I have experienced over the last 4-5 months.

Yoghurt has been in use for around 1000 years and supplement manufacturers have not bettered it. The defined strains are the only real benefit and I take advantage of that to produce a much cheaper AND stronger version of my own. All for the cost of a yoghurt maker @ around £30, some powered milk@£1.01 for 400g@sainsburys. Some filtered water and I often use a little FOS to speed things up which I also did with the capsule cultures so no unfair advantages. Compare that to approx £1.80 at sainsburys for their 1Kg natural yoghurt with undefined cultures. I use 360g of milk powder to make approx 3.4 litres of yoghurt in one go, boiling the milk to sterilize and alter the milk proteins in order to make them set better.

I have been making yoghurt for well over 5 years and have tried many methods and starters. My best personal results have come by using XtraLac capsules. I have tried many different starters, including the widely studied L. rhamnosus GG and nothing worked as well for the reason I take it than the XtraLac yoghurt. I put that down to Bacillus Subtilis which is highly recommended for all fermenting tasks, especially food such as Soya Beans and vegetables. L. Plantarum is another which benefits me and helps to maintain the gut lining integrity by producing a mucin that helps protect the digestive system. Bacillus Coagulans has twice the quantity than the next quantity bacteria in XtraLac which is L. Plantarum, however I do not know how beneficial B.C. has been. It's meant to be effective against yeast and it can lower high cholesterol, however those are unknown quantities for me because there is very little to suggest it's a problem, I don't have high cholesterol, if anything it is quite low when it was tested late last year. Something in it is getting the required result and I haven't been as well in the last 20 years. Still a little way to go but certainly getting closer by the day.

FructoOligoSaccharides (FOS hence on), speed up a yoghurt finish time and are well known to facilitate the growth of probiotic bacteria.

Fibre is the other aspect to consider because bacteria break down the fibre and produce many of the beneficial substances that provide the health benefits. However, be careful. Taking bacteria with pure cellulose fibre can be very uncomfortable, they break it down and produce a lot of gas which is very bloating and uncomfortable. It feels like the stomach is going to explode! Needless to say, I don't recommend you try it unless you want to share the experience.
[/B]

Based on research (not mine, published) for one of my degree level qualifications not sales pitch. Bacteria can double every twenty minutes given optimal conditions, the amount of 'food' available is a limiting factor in any culture medium, storage conditions at every stage post production is also highly relevant.

Since you haven't quantified an "average size pot of yoghurt" your post is equally meaningless. Ditto you don't say how you used the capsule contents as a starter - not it's intended function anyway.

FOS is a type of soluble fibre, not sure why you are referring to them separately. Your nomenclature is off, the microbe species name is not capitalised.

Fire_Fox

lostinrates wrote: »

Firefox, can I ask about the hospitable environment thing?

I am taking the yogurt type probiotic drinks ATM. But I find for them to work I have to take more than one, and twice a day. (So with each meal). The pill type from h and B. (which I would prefer) don't seem to have any impact.

Is this, and the need to take more than once a day, likely to be a GIT environment issue? ( I know you cannot advice specifically I am just wondering if it could be the reason)

Could be.

How were you taking the capsules, on an empty stomach or with food? Did you store them in the refrigerator? If you have other underlying health problems it may be difficult for the microbes to get a 'foot hold' - IBS for example. Could be the species, you may be 'starving out' the bacteria with a restrictive diet, or the yoghurt may be supplying other nutrients that you are benefiting from.

khampson

clairibel wrote: »

I've tried loads of different of supplements and even yoghurt and kefir but none helped as much as Biokult probiotics on Amazon, I have been on them 5 months now and no bloating or itchy skin issues anymore which have gradually cleared. But I'm not an expert and everyone's different

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Protexin-Bio-Kult-Advanced-Probiotic-Capsules/dp/B004SH1PAU/ref=pd_sim_d_1

Just seen that these only have 2 billion bacteria. Is this a little low compared to others on the market? Ive seen 50 billion so are these better for you. Feel sorry to ever has to do a batteria stock take!

Keith

lostinrates

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Could be.

How were you taking the capsules, on an empty stomach or with food? Did you store them in the refrigerator? If you have other underlying health problems it may be difficult for the microbes to get a 'foot hold' - IBS for example. Could be the species, you may be 'starving out' the bacteria with a restrictive diet, or the yoghurt may be supplying other nutrients that you are benefiting from.

Yes, I have a restrictive diet.:(. Yes I have underlining health problems and have been having digestion issues, sort of IBs like (came out of nowhere a bout 16 months ago) which is why i started messing about with probiotics. I was keeping the capsules in the fridge (still do, my dh takes them and likes them).

I take the yoghurt either on a stomach or with food, and the capsules I was taking with food usually, but the odd time I will have taken them on an empty stomach.

Thanks, you are right it could be nutrition from the yoghurt, I had not thought of that. .

Thank you for the perspective.

Fire_Fox

lostinrates wrote: »

Yes, I have a restrictive diet.:(. Yes I have underlining health problems and have been having digestion issues, sort of IBs like (came out of nowhere a bout 16 months ago) which is why i started messing about with probiotics. I was keeping the capsules in the fridge (still do, my dh takes them and likes them).

I take the yoghurt either on a stomach or with food, and the capsules I was taking with food.

Thanks, you are right it could be nutrition from the yoghurt, I had not thought of that. .

Thank you for the perspective.

((hugs))

Research suggested probiotics plus a decent dose of long chain omega-3s from oily fish or fish body oils (powerful anti inflammatories) were beneficial in some with IBS and similar conditions. Some of the bacteria species aid with production and absorption of vitamins or minerals.

But loads of conditions are linked with micronutrient deficiencies, from hypothyroidism to type 2 diabetes to cardiovascular conditions. It's a minefield of chicken-and-egg. Magnesium intake is my bete noire.

lostinrates

Fire_Fox wrote: »

((hugs))

Research suggested probiotics plus a decent dose of long chain omega-3s from oily fish or fish body oils (powerful anti inflammatories) were beneficial in some with IBS and similar conditions. Some of the bacteria species aid with production and absorption of vitamins or minerals.

But loads of conditions are linked with micronutrient deficiencies, from hypothyroidism to type 2 diabetes to cardiovascular conditions. It's a minefield of chicken-and-egg. Magnesium intake is my bete noire.

I have hypothyroidism too, and a growing collection of neurological problems, from quite serious to rather minor. And a couple of other things. . I would quite like a body transplant

Some of the things I am recommended to avoid are my favourite foods....e.g. I was advised to cut down on the brassicas for the hypothyroid control.....but I adore cabbage. . I have several things which have combined to impact severely on BMR so things like cabbage were great for 'comfort food' without huge calories. Where as avocado, which I am meant to eat, and I adore, is so calorific it has significant impact on what else I can eat. .

I take so many bloody supplements along with my actual pills I rattle, and I am not surprised that my GIT has started playing up:o. If I accept that the yogurt drinks are most helpful form for me I have to factor them into an already heavily calorie restricted diet so that's the main reason I would rather take the pills, so I can get some other nutrition from food.

I have to say, I learn more from your posts on here than I have with either the NHS or private referrals I have had about diet. I always appreciate your posts, whether relevant to me or not:)


Can I ask what you mean about magnesium? Are you meaning you find it hard to take or that you think its poorly advised on taking?

I was taking a magnesium (and something else) on recommendation until these IBS type symptoms, because it makes one of them (I am guessing you can guess which ) worse. But I do feel its one of the few supplements that made a difference I can 'feel' (the other being the iron and c I take,...both make me feel more noticably 'perky' more than the broad spectrum ones).

j.e.j.

A.Penny.Saved wrote: »

You would be best off taking either a very strong supplement or plenty of yoghurt to restore the balance. Biocare make the best called Replete Intensive with 130 billion cells per sachet. I've tried it and it tastes okay, you mix it with water, warm preferably.

http://www.biocare.co.uk/default.aspx?GroupGuid=29&ProductGuid=30507

The moral of the story, well prepared Yoghurt is always best!

Thankyou for the recommendation. I thought that with regard to yoghurts, any beneficial properties of live yoghurt would be killed off by the acid in your stomach so it's better to take a supplement which would survive the acid environment of the stomach and get to the gut, where it's needed. I'm not an expert on this, it's just something I read a while ago.