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Need help, EDF have overcharged us for 17 years!
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SeanTheMac
Posts: 8 Forumite
in Energy
Hi, we have been directed to this forum by a friend who has told us there are a lot of very knowledgeable people with very good advice to be found here. We certainly need it.
For the past 17 years we have used EDF for our electricity, we don't have mains gas in our village so our heating, cooking and lighting is all electric. In all this time we have been on a prepaid key meter and have been suspicious that we were paying over the odds for our supply. We are on an economy 7 tariff and have night storage heaters and the immersion heater wired into a different circuit that only kicks in between 12:00 - 8:00am.
We have been complaining about our energy costs to EDF for at least the past 15 years and have gone through numerous rigorous checks and appliance surveys to try and get to the bottom of the problem all to no avail.
Recently however we have acquired a clamp meter and have looked into our usage in greater detail, and it appears we have isolated the issue.
Now this is a bit complicated and I'm not sure I can explain it precisely but please bear with me and I'll try and make sense.
Anyone who has a key meter will know that there is an "emergency credit" function. This is made available when you run out of credit and the power cuts off. It is accessed by putting the uncharged key into the meter and in our case we get an extra £6 to use until such time as we can get to a paypoint and charge the key. This is then recouped when the charged key is inserted.
So if we use £5 on emergency credit and put a key charged with £10 in the meter we receive £5 in credit. So far so good?
This next bit is where it gets a bit complicated.
If the meter runs out of credit in the middle of the night while we are sleeping, then the meter will continue to provide electricity until the morning, at which time the electricity supply will cut off and the key has to be inserted. This is so people in our situation who rely on electricity for heating don't freeze during the night if they run out of charge. If a charged key is inserted then it will instantly recoup what it has run up overnight and you are left with the balance. If an uncharged key is inserted then it adds an additional £6 emergency credit and when a charged key is eventually inserted it recoups both the totals.
As an example, we ran out of charge overnight on Monday night and the electricity went off at 10am on Tuesday morning. We had used £6.41 overnight and by inserting the uncharged key we got another £6 of credit. When we eventually inserted a key later that day charged with £15 we had used £4.88 of the £6 emergency credit and were left with a useable charge of £3.71.
Again, so far so good. £6.41 + £4.88 = £11.29 and £15.00 - £11.29 = £3.71, exactly what we were left with.
After looking at our usage with our clamp meter we were able to get a good idea of how much power in KWH we used during this first period of emergency credit on Monday night when we were all asleep. Taking thermostatic fluctuations into account it works out just shy of 36 units. And this is where the problem lies.
Our economy 7 nighttime rate is £0.0683 per unit, 36 units * £0.0683 is £2.4588 or nearly £2.46 and yet we racked up £6.41 in this time.
We were at a loss to understand this until my wife had a moment of inspiration and asked me to try the same calculation at the full daytime rate of £0.1803 per unit and guess what? 36 * £0.1803 = £6.4908, almost exactly what we were actually charged!
It was at this point that all the pieces of the puzzle started to fall into place.
We are being charged full daytime rate if we run out of charge overnight and not the economy 7 rate we are supposed to be getting.
This has a knock on effect as we usually charge our key in increments of £20, typically if the charge has run out while we were asleep we would only have £8-10 useable charge on the key after both emergency charges have been taken off. This will then run out while we are asleep the following night and we get charged the full daytime rate again, further compounding the issue. On balance it would appear that for at least part of 3 nights out of every week we are being charged full daytime rate for our nighttime usage.
As our nighttime usage is massively higher than our daytime useage due to the fact that our storage and immersion heaters are running, we are being overcharged by around £10-20 per week.
This has been going on for 17 years.
We aren't in a financial position to put large amounts of charge on the key and have been struggling to find the £50 to £70 per week that the meter has demanded to keep the heating and lights on.
We have been cold every winter for as long as I can remember and we use extra layers of clothing and blankets to try and stay warm both day and night. This is no exaggeration, we are freezing here!
We have tried everything over the years to cut power use, we only run 1 or 2 storage heaters out of a possible 5, we try and reduce the amount of pots we use when cooking, put less water in the kettle and we even use a launderette to wash our clothes because we can't afford to run the washing machine.
And it turns out that all this time it was all completely and utterly pointless.
The meter is set up to charge more to those that can least afford it.
Also, if it's happening to us then it may be happening to many many more people in our situation. We are on the breadline here and a large part of that is because our electricity costs are crippling us. How many other poor sods out there are suffering the same way, caught up in the same vicious circle of running out of charge, being ripped off and running out again.
If it's a mistake on EDF's part then it's a tragedy. If it's deliberate policy then it's scandalous.
We have gone to great lengths to diagnose this issue, an issue that EDF may already be perfectly aware of and could have rectified 15 years ago when we first started querying our energy costs.
We can now take steps to try and ensure we never slip into emergency credit overnight but that's not the point.
The point is we shouldn't be paying daytime rate at night for any reason whatsoever, most especially not because we can't afford to keep the key charged all the time.
What do we do, where do we turn and how do we recoup the many thousands of pounds over the odds we have paid to date and get some compensation for the physical, mental and financial hardship that we have suffered all these years?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
For the past 17 years we have used EDF for our electricity, we don't have mains gas in our village so our heating, cooking and lighting is all electric. In all this time we have been on a prepaid key meter and have been suspicious that we were paying over the odds for our supply. We are on an economy 7 tariff and have night storage heaters and the immersion heater wired into a different circuit that only kicks in between 12:00 - 8:00am.
We have been complaining about our energy costs to EDF for at least the past 15 years and have gone through numerous rigorous checks and appliance surveys to try and get to the bottom of the problem all to no avail.
Recently however we have acquired a clamp meter and have looked into our usage in greater detail, and it appears we have isolated the issue.
Now this is a bit complicated and I'm not sure I can explain it precisely but please bear with me and I'll try and make sense.
Anyone who has a key meter will know that there is an "emergency credit" function. This is made available when you run out of credit and the power cuts off. It is accessed by putting the uncharged key into the meter and in our case we get an extra £6 to use until such time as we can get to a paypoint and charge the key. This is then recouped when the charged key is inserted.
So if we use £5 on emergency credit and put a key charged with £10 in the meter we receive £5 in credit. So far so good?
This next bit is where it gets a bit complicated.
If the meter runs out of credit in the middle of the night while we are sleeping, then the meter will continue to provide electricity until the morning, at which time the electricity supply will cut off and the key has to be inserted. This is so people in our situation who rely on electricity for heating don't freeze during the night if they run out of charge. If a charged key is inserted then it will instantly recoup what it has run up overnight and you are left with the balance. If an uncharged key is inserted then it adds an additional £6 emergency credit and when a charged key is eventually inserted it recoups both the totals.
As an example, we ran out of charge overnight on Monday night and the electricity went off at 10am on Tuesday morning. We had used £6.41 overnight and by inserting the uncharged key we got another £6 of credit. When we eventually inserted a key later that day charged with £15 we had used £4.88 of the £6 emergency credit and were left with a useable charge of £3.71.
Again, so far so good. £6.41 + £4.88 = £11.29 and £15.00 - £11.29 = £3.71, exactly what we were left with.
After looking at our usage with our clamp meter we were able to get a good idea of how much power in KWH we used during this first period of emergency credit on Monday night when we were all asleep. Taking thermostatic fluctuations into account it works out just shy of 36 units. And this is where the problem lies.
Our economy 7 nighttime rate is £0.0683 per unit, 36 units * £0.0683 is £2.4588 or nearly £2.46 and yet we racked up £6.41 in this time.
We were at a loss to understand this until my wife had a moment of inspiration and asked me to try the same calculation at the full daytime rate of £0.1803 per unit and guess what? 36 * £0.1803 = £6.4908, almost exactly what we were actually charged!
It was at this point that all the pieces of the puzzle started to fall into place.
We are being charged full daytime rate if we run out of charge overnight and not the economy 7 rate we are supposed to be getting.
This has a knock on effect as we usually charge our key in increments of £20, typically if the charge has run out while we were asleep we would only have £8-10 useable charge on the key after both emergency charges have been taken off. This will then run out while we are asleep the following night and we get charged the full daytime rate again, further compounding the issue. On balance it would appear that for at least part of 3 nights out of every week we are being charged full daytime rate for our nighttime usage.
As our nighttime usage is massively higher than our daytime useage due to the fact that our storage and immersion heaters are running, we are being overcharged by around £10-20 per week.
This has been going on for 17 years.
We aren't in a financial position to put large amounts of charge on the key and have been struggling to find the £50 to £70 per week that the meter has demanded to keep the heating and lights on.
We have been cold every winter for as long as I can remember and we use extra layers of clothing and blankets to try and stay warm both day and night. This is no exaggeration, we are freezing here!
We have tried everything over the years to cut power use, we only run 1 or 2 storage heaters out of a possible 5, we try and reduce the amount of pots we use when cooking, put less water in the kettle and we even use a launderette to wash our clothes because we can't afford to run the washing machine.
And it turns out that all this time it was all completely and utterly pointless.
The meter is set up to charge more to those that can least afford it.
Also, if it's happening to us then it may be happening to many many more people in our situation. We are on the breadline here and a large part of that is because our electricity costs are crippling us. How many other poor sods out there are suffering the same way, caught up in the same vicious circle of running out of charge, being ripped off and running out again.
If it's a mistake on EDF's part then it's a tragedy. If it's deliberate policy then it's scandalous.
We have gone to great lengths to diagnose this issue, an issue that EDF may already be perfectly aware of and could have rectified 15 years ago when we first started querying our energy costs.
We can now take steps to try and ensure we never slip into emergency credit overnight but that's not the point.
The point is we shouldn't be paying daytime rate at night for any reason whatsoever, most especially not because we can't afford to keep the key charged all the time.
What do we do, where do we turn and how do we recoup the many thousands of pounds over the odds we have paid to date and get some compensation for the physical, mental and financial hardship that we have suffered all these years?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Comments
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SeanTheMac wrote: »Hi, we have been directed to this forum by a friend who has told us there are a lot of very knowledgeable people with very good advice to be found here. We certainly need it.
For the past 17 years we have used EDF for our electricity, we don't have mains gas in our village so our heating, cooking and lighting is all electric. In all this time we have been on a prepaid key meter and have been suspicious that we were paying over the odds for our supply. We are on an economy 7 tariff and have night storage heaters and the immersion heater wired into a different circuit that only kicks in between 12:00 - 8:00am.
We have been complaining about our energy costs to EDF for at least the past 15 years and have gone through numerous rigorous checks and appliance surveys to try and get to the bottom of the problem all to no avail.
Recently however we have acquired a clamp meter and have looked into our usage in greater detail, and it appears we have isolated the issue.
Now this is a bit complicated and I'm not sure I can explain it precisely but please bear with me and I'll try and make sense.
Anyone who has a key meter will know that there is an "emergency credit" function. This is made available when you run out of credit and the power cuts off. It is accessed by putting the uncharged key into the meter and in our case we get an extra £6 to use until such time as we can get to a paypoint and charge the key. This is then recouped when the charged key is inserted.
So if we use £5 on emergency credit and put a key charged with £10 in the meter we receive £5 in credit. So far so good?
This next bit is where it gets a bit complicated.
If the meter runs out of credit in the middle of the night while we are sleeping, then the meter will continue to provide electricity until the morning, at which time the electricity supply will cut off and the key has to be inserted. This is so people in our situation who rely on electricity for heating don't freeze during the night if they run out of charge. If a charged key is inserted then it will instantly recoup what it has run up overnight and you are left with the balance. If an uncharged key is inserted then it adds an additional £6 emergency credit and when a charged key is eventually inserted it recoups both the totals.
As an example, we ran out of charge overnight on Monday night and the electricity went off at 10am on Tuesday morning. We had used £6.41 overnight and by inserting the uncharged key we got another £6 of credit. When we eventually inserted a key later that day charged with £15 we had used £4.88 of the £6 emergency credit and were left with a useable charge of £3.71.
Again, so far so good. £6.41 + £4.88 = £11.29 and £15.00 - £11.29 = £3.71, exactly what we were left with.
After looking at our usage with our clamp meter we were able to get a good idea of how much power in KWH we used during this first period of emergency credit on Monday night when we were all asleep. Taking thermostatic fluctuations into account it works out just shy of 36 units. And this is where the problem lies.
Our economy 7 nighttime rate is £0.0683 per unit, 36 units * £0.0683 is £2.4588 or nearly £2.46 and yet we racked up £6.41 in this time.
We were at a loss to understand this until my wife had a moment of inspiration and asked me to try the same calculation at the full daytime rate of £0.1803 per unit and guess what? 36 * £0.1803 = £6.4908, almost exactly what we were actually charged!
It was at this point that all the pieces of the puzzle started to fall into place.
We are being charged full daytime rate if we run out of charge overnight and not the economy 7 rate we are supposed to be getting.
This has a knock on effect as we usually charge our key in increments of £20, typically if the charge has run out while we were asleep we would only have £8-10 useable charge on the key after both emergency charges have been taken off. This will then run out while we are asleep the following night and we get charged the full daytime rate again, further compounding the issue. On balance it would appear that for at least part of 3 nights out of every week we are being charged full daytime rate for our nighttime usage.
As our nighttime usage is massively higher than our daytime useage due to the fact that our storage and immersion heaters are running, we are being overcharged by around £10-20 per week.
This has been going on for 17 years.
We aren't in a financial position to put large amounts of charge on the key and have been struggling to find the £50 to £70 per week that the meter has demanded to keep the heating and lights on.
We have been cold every winter for as long as I can remember and we use extra layers of clothing and blankets to try and stay warm both day and night. This is no exaggeration, we are freezing here!
We have tried everything over the years to cut power use, we only run 1 or 2 storage heaters out of a possible 5, we try and reduce the amount of pots we use when cooking, put less water in the kettle and we even use a launderette to wash our clothes because we can't afford to run the washing machine.
And it turns out that all this time it was all completely and utterly pointless.
The meter is set up to charge more to those that can least afford it.
Also, if it's happening to us then it may be happening to many many more people in our situation. We are on the breadline here and a large part of that is because our electricity costs are crippling us. How many other poor sods out there are suffering the same way, caught up in the same vicious circle of running out of charge, being ripped off and running out again.
If it's a mistake on EDF's part then it's a tragedy. If it's deliberate policy then it's scandalous.
We have gone to great lengths to diagnose this issue, an issue that EDF may already be perfectly aware of and could have rectified 15 years ago when we first started querying our energy costs.
We can now take steps to try and ensure we never slip into emergency credit overnight but that's not the point.
The point is we shouldn't be paying daytime rate at night for any reason whatsoever, most especially not because we can't afford to keep the key charged all the time.
What do we do, where do we turn and how do we recoup the many thousands of pounds over the odds we have paid to date and get some compensation for the physical, mental and financial hardship that we have suffered all these years?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Have you contacted EDF about this, and if so, what has been their response to you?
Edit: I see you said you complained 15 years ago, so the option of going to the ombudsman is now timed out.
But out of interest, what was EDFs response to your complaint?0 -
I cant help with the PPM issue. But how can it be cheaper to take your washing to a launderette than wash it at home, even on peak rate, using hot water you have heated overnight?No free lunch, and no free laptop
0 -
We haven't contacted them to let them know we know what is happening no.
I'm afraid if we do they will replace the meter and deny everything, leaving us with no proof.
After all, if there are another half million or so key meter households all paying a thousand pounds a year over the odds they are going to be very wary of accepting responsibility I'd have thought.
We have never officially complained to EDF, we have only queried the cost of our supply over the past 15 years.0 -
I cant help with the PPM issue. But how can it be cheaper to take your washing to a launderette than wash it at home, even on peak rate, using hot water you have heated overnight?
That's just one of the measures we have adopted to try and get the cost down, we have tried everything. It's probably not cheaper but if the washing machine was faulty it may have explained part of the issue.0 -
SeanTheMac wrote: »We have been complaining about our energy costs to EDF for at least the past 15 years and have gone through numerous rigorous checks and appliance surveys to try and get to the bottom of the problem all to no avail.SeanTheMac wrote: »...We have never officially complained to EDF, ....
:huh: .
If you think you have any reason to complain today, I suggest you follow the suppliers complaint procedure.
If you have any medical problems, I suggest you contact your GP for advice
Good luck!0 -
:huh: .
I don't get your confusion. Surely it would take a formal written complaint to EDF before the ombudsman can get involved?
We've been trying to get to the bottom of this for 15 years and EDF have always maintained that as far as they are concerned there isn't an issue and we are just particularly heavy consumers.
What would we complain about? The fact that we are using too much electricity? We only finally realised what the issue actually was yesterday.
We have suspected for all this time that this wasn't the problem but never had any proof until now.
Are you saying we should make a formal written complaint now? I am asking for help by the way not criticism (unless it's constructive), I'm not a consumer rights expert that is why I posted here in the first place.
Oh and can you please stop editing your posts? I try and respond and after I do you have changed the original.0 -
The MAGIC word is Complaint - any phone call you have made, or Email sent to EDF over the years is treated just as a communication, but with a LETTER headed Complaint a whole set of rules kick in that EDF have to abide by
What this has actually cost you is impossible to evaluate due to the sporadic event of the meter running out of credit overnight, but you'll need to estblish hard evidence of this meters peculiar behaviour.
This means photo's of all the screens before bed time when you know the credit will run out overnight, then more photos the next morning that show the Night power used and the cost
Keep us posted and Good Luck0 -
The MAGIC word is Complaint - any phone call you have made, or Email sent to EDF over the years is treated just as a communication, but with a LETTER headed Complaint a whole set of rules kick in that EDF have to abide by
What this has actually cost you is impossible to evaluate due to the sporadic event of the meter running out of credit overnight, but you'll need to estblish hard evidence of this meters peculiar behaviour.
This means photo's of all the screens before bed time when you know the credit will run out overnight, then more photos the next morning that show the Night power used and the cost
Keep us posted and Good Luck
Thanks, some decent advice.
I can take a photograph of the charge remaining and the night unit total before I go to bed and another in the morning. As you say it's going to be impossible to find out exactly how much this has cost us over the years but it may help with a rough estimation.0 -
Maybe if you do a few readings over a period of time it will help with the estimation process as well as provide better proof than just the one set?MBNA [STRIKE]£2,029[/STRIKE] £1,145 Virgin [STRIKE]£8,712[/STRIKE] £7,957 Sainsbury [STRIKE]£6,870[/STRIKE] £5,575 M&S [STRIKE]£10,016[/STRIKE] £9,690 Barclaycard [STRIKE]£11,951[/STRIKE] £11,628 CTC [STRIKE]£7,629[/STRIKE] £6,789 Mortgage £[STRIKE]182,828[/STRIKE] £171,670
LBM Dec12 excl mort 47,207/42,784 Dec13
Excl mortg and CTC 39,578/35,995 Dec13
Incl mortg 230,035/214,454 Dec13
Extra payment a week:this week £0 / YTD£1,457.550 -
SeanTheMac wrote: »That's just one of the measures we have adopted to try and get the cost down, we have tried everything. It's probably not cheaper but if the washing machine was faulty it may have explained part of the issue.
Which is a completely different issue. But a bit of Googling tells me that a launderette wash will cost you a minimum of £2.50, whereas a typical home wash cycle would be more like 30-40pp (for the electricity/hot water). So I don't think 'probably' comes into it. It's more expensive by far.
But what I find really baffling is that you have been struggling with your bills for 17 years, but you've never changed supplier?No free lunch, and no free laptop0
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