Need A Bus? Youre A Failure Said Thatcher

DCodd

cgk1 wrote: »

Only problem is that she never actually said that or anything like that, it's a persistant urban myth - I hated Thatcher but we might as well be accurate.

Although it is quoted in Hansard that she made that statement in 1986, albeit that the speach was written for her by someone else.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030702/debtext/30702-10.htm

Hasbeen

So "intelligent" Labour MPs even believes the myth she said that?
And brought it up in the house of commons?
Dear Dear!:rotfl:

antrobus

DCodd wrote: »

Although it is quoted in Hansard that she made that statement in 1986, albeit that the speach was written for her by someone else.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030702/debtext/30702-10.htm

All that means is that a Lib Dem MP named Don Foster has claimed in Parliament that she used those words. Wikiquote (for what it's worth) specifically lists the quote as 'Misattributed' and states that "There is no solid evidence that Margaret Thatcher ever quoted this statement with approval, or indeed shared the sentiment."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

The best I could find in terms of a source, was this piece from the Guardian which states - " I got a message from the office of one of the MPs who had used this quotation suggesting it came from a piece in the Sunday Times in November 1998. But this proved to be merely the report of what Brian Souter, chairman of Stagecoach, had recalled her as saying when he collected a business award, and seems at best to have been a casual paraphrase." - which doesn't amount to much.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1560453,00.html

DCodd

antrobus wrote: »

All that means is that a Lib Dem MP named Don Foster has claimed in Parliament that she used those words. Wikiquote (for what it's worth) specifically lists the quote as 'Misattributed' and states that "There is no solid evidence that Margaret Thatcher ever quoted this statement with approval, or indeed shared the sentiment."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

The best I could find in terms of a source, was this piece from the Guardian which states - " I got a message from the office of one of the MPs who had used this quotation suggesting it came from a piece in the Sunday Times in November 1998. But this proved to be merely the report of what Brian Souter, chairman of Stagecoach, had recalled her as saying when he collected a business award, and seems at best to have been a casual paraphrase." - which doesn't amount to much.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1560453,00.html

That may well be the case. However that claim by the Lib Dem MP was made in front of the Rank and File of the then Conservative Party in opposition including Michael Howard, a young David Cameron, Ian Duncan-Smith, William Hague etc etc. One would think that it would have been challenged if it was such a derogatory myth?

ILW

About a year ago I went on a couple of buses for the first time in 15 years. It was a bit of an adventure, but I would not wish to do it on a regular basis.
I didn't realise how many weird people there were out there.

antrobus

DCodd wrote: »

That may well be the case. However that claim by the Lib Dem MP was made in front of the Rank and File of the then Conservative Party in opposition including Michael Howard, a young David Cameron, Ian Duncan-Smith, William Hague etc etc. One would think that it would have been challenged if it was such a derogatory myth?

It would be rather an assumption that the claim was made 'in front' of anyone in particular. I'm not sure how popular an opposition debate about Road and Rail Transport would have been in 2003, but there might well have been only a dozen MPs present for all I know. Besides, not everyone is as obsessed with MT as some people appear to be.

DCodd

antrobus wrote: »

It would be rather an assumption that the claim was made 'in front' of anyone in particular. I'm not sure how popular an opposition debate about Road and Rail Transport would have been in 2003, but there might well have been only a dozen MPs present for all I know. Besides, not everyone is as obsessed with MT as some people appear to be.

There was a vote that followed the debate and it appears that 533 votes were cast and the people I mentioned were present for the vote.

antrobus

DCodd wrote: »

There was a vote that followed the debate and it appears that 533 votes were cast and the people I mentioned were present for the vote.

Not that it really matters, but you are aware, aren't you, that voting on a motion in Parliament and being present for the preceding debate are two quite different things? The division bell rings, and suddenly the bars empty and everyone troops in through the 'correct' lobby as indicated by the party whips.

antrobus

I've established the following;

(1) the Brian Souter source comes from an article in the Sunday Times dated November 29, 1998 under the headline 'No shame in failure, business elite told' which states;

Brian Souter , chairman of Stagecoach, receiving his second award of the night, having discreetly popped out during the speeches to pick up a gong at another function, modestly admitted to past failures. "Not many people will be aware that me and my sister Ann (Gloag) once ran an ice cream van. We also tried antiques," Souter said.

He recalled a comment by Margaret Thatcher in her early days as prime minister: "If a man finds himself a passenger on a bus at the age of 26 he can think himself a complete failure." Souter said he had not done badly out of finding himself on the buses.

There is no other reference to the phrase that I can find, either on Newsbank, or on the Times Digital Archive. (Which goes back to 1785 and therefore should cover all the bases.)

(2) MT's public utterances are very well documented. The Margaret Thatcher Foundation (http://www.margaretthatcher.org/) has an online database of every statement made by MT between 1945-90 and you can buy a CD of the Complete Public Statements of Margaret Thatcher, 1945-90. So if she had, as Don Foster claimed, used the phrase in a speech in 1986, it would be there. It doesn't appear that it does.

My conclusion is therefore that whilst there are people who have claimed that she said it, she didn't.

DCodd

antrobus wrote: »

Not that it really matters, but you are aware, aren't you, that voting on a motion in Parliament and being present for the preceding debate are two quite different things? The division bell rings, and suddenly the bars empty and everyone troops in through the 'correct' lobby as indicated by the party whips.

Yes I am very aware of that but it was quite a big debate as it was less than a year after Network Rail bought Railtrack and certain parts of the debate centred on Network Rails performance to that date.

And Yes, I'm sad enough to remember it.