Northern Rail Fixed Penalty Notice: Help Please

geordie_taxi

wealdroam wrote: »

Geordie_taxi, I am sure that even you can work out the answer to that question.

I know the answer u know the answer most people on this forum know the answer

but these unlawful 'fixed penalty notice' r a way to extort monies out of unsuspecting passengers as is the 'settle out of court options' all to increase profits. true fare dodgers dont get these options the evidence against them is to gr8 so straight to prosecution

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

The onus is on the traveller to seek out the Guard in such circumstances, or pay at their destination station..

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

This is not correct. There is nothing written that states you have to find the guard yourself should there be no ticket issuing facilities at your starting station.

again stigy i see ur posting incorrect info just to confuse innocent passengers i suppose it helps increase profits if they get caught out :mad:

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

I know the answer u know the answer most people on this forum know the answer

but these unlawful 'fixed penalty notice' r a way to extort monies out of unsuspecting passengers as is the 'settle out of court options' all to increase profits. true fare dodgers dont get these options the evidence against them is to gr8 so straight to prosecution

All correct apart from the extortion part. Quite right that persistant evaders go straight to court. The settlements allow for TOCs to settle matters without the need for court action, and reflect their costs incurred. This means that people aren't receiving large fines in courts and/or criminal records. They don't profit from them, nor do they in court.

They could go to court with everything if they wished, as for a Byelaw ticketing conviction the only evidence needed is that the passenger didn't have a ticket, and there were opportunities to buy one.

Did you know, also, that the greedy TOC takes just 20% from all ticket sales? This includes Penalty Fares. Guess where the other 80% goes. We've been over this before, but thought I'd just go over some old ground, just in case you 'didn't see it' before.

All in all then, TOCs are far from greedy....

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Stigy wrote: »

I believe "as soon as practicable" is the terminology. This would, in a lot of Northern's territory, by the Guard on the Train. Are there Permit to Travel machines in that neck of the woods too?

There are no Pertis because they are not part of the penalty fare scheme. There is nothing anywhere that states you have to find the guard to purchase a ticket. In an ideal world then yes find the guard but remember they are there primarily for the safe dispatch of the train.

Stigy

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

There are no Pertis because they are not part of the penalty fare scheme. There is nothing anywhere that states you have to find the guard to purchase a ticket. In an ideal world then yes find the guard but remember they are there primarily for the safe dispatch of the train.

I agree that the Guard is there primarily for the safety etc, but on such a route "as soon as reasonably practicable" would be the Guard, as there's obviously nowhere at the station to buy, therefore on the train is the passenger's first real opportunity. If you're going from one unmanned station to another, this just goes to strengthen the TOC's case, as the ONLY opportunity was the Guard. At inner city stations, or where there's open ticket offices and such like, this won't come in to it most of the time because you should buy before you board.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Stigy wrote: »

I agree that the Guard is there primarily for the safety etc, but on such a route "as soon as reasonably practicable" would be the Guard, as there's obviously nowhere at the station to buy, therefore on the train is the passenger's first real opportunity. If you're going from one unmanned station to another, this just goes to strengthen the TOC's case, as the ONLY opportunity was the Guard. At inner city stations, or where there's open ticket offices and such like, this won't come in to it most of the time because you should buy before you board.

But htere is no onus on the passenger to find the guard at all. And if the train is packed then they cant find the guard as he will just deal with dispatch which is why it is not written that they have to find the guard.

If theyre going from one unmanned to another then that is the problem for Northern. They do have lots of revenue blocks around their network to assit with this but there is still no onus on the passenger to actively find the guard to purchase their ticket.

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

I agree that the Guard is there primarily for the safety etc, but on such a route "as soon as reasonably practicable" would be the Guard, as there's obviously nowhere at the station to buy, therefore on the train is the passenger's first real opportunity. If you're going from one unmanned station to another, this just goes to strengthen the TOC's case, as the ONLY opportunity was the Guard. At inner city stations, or where there's open ticket offices and such like, this won't come in to it most of the time because you should buy before you board.

more incorrect info again. as has been posted its not up to the passenger but down to northern to be more helpful ie provide facilities/people to buy tickets from instead of persecuting unfortunate passengers with fixed penalties. all to get back that 80% of fares theyve lost. 2 wrongs dont make a right

Stigy

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

But htere is no onus on the passenger to find the guard at all. And if the train is packed then they cant find the guard as he will just deal with dispatch which is why it is not written that they have to find the guard.

The onus is on the passenger to pay their fare, and if that means seeking the Guard, so be it. I see what you're saying, and you're quite right in that there's nothing written specifically about finding the Guard. If the passenger can't find the Guard, or chooses not to seek him, they're leaving themselves open to trouble. If the company wanted to, they could pull CCTV, check how heavily the train was loaded and speak to the train crew all in order to aid a possible prosecution.

If a passenger was going from one unmanned station to another (or one that's routinely unmanned at least), on a lightly loaded train for example, with routine questioning at their destination, they could be seen to be evading their fare.

Stigy

geordie_taxi wrote: »

all to get back that 80% of fares theyve lost. 2 wrongs dont make a right

Where did you pluck that number from? I assume you're referring to Northern getting paid 20% of the fare? You can't lose something you never had, can you?

I see you've ignored the other important bits, such as the fact that the companies don't extort money etc...

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

I see you've ignored the other important bits, such as the fact that the companies don't extort money etc...

'fixed penalty notice' with no lawful legislation that is extortion. but please i wud luv to hear ur take on 'if you dont pay us this bribe (which has no legal directive) then we will prosecute' isnt extorting monies out of passengers
gl