Work Outsourced to India - Redundancy - Worth Fighting in Tribunal?

mrobsessed

Hi all,

I an in a large UK company which in Nov 2012 announced that it was outsourcing the bulk of the type of work I do to India, resulting in over 110 redundancies nationally and the complete closure of my department.

We are now at the stage of leaving the company in a months time and have been very recently given details of redundancy settlements and other legal processes. We have been asked to sign an agreement - which we have still not seen - after we have consulted a solicitor over its content. Then the agreement is sent to America (where the company that operates from India is based) to be signed and then sent to India to be signed by staff there.

Despite being told of the job losses in mid November we will not get the agreement until less than two weeks before we leave at the end of April. Is is normal to leave it so late after months of 'consultation'?

When we first got told about the job losses, we were 'offered' jobs in India with no relocation fees or travel costs, but the company has now (months later) admitted that this is not viable option, but I think the agreement that we have to sign cites the 'refusal' of the job in India as an excuse for losing our jobs. I believe this is to get round certain employment laws.

I asked what happens if I don't sign the agreement and was told I'd get Statutory redundancy and would 'resign' on 30th April. I pointed out that I haven't resigned and that I would then presumably be taking the company to tribunal court - this was confirmed.

The enhanced money given if I do sign is defined as 'compensation' and is considerably more than the statutory payment - is it worth fighting this in tribunal and risk losing the enhanced payment? Another staff member in a different dept received the agreement before us and went to a solicitor. He was told he might have a case, but that it probably wasn't worth the trouble.

It seems to me that there is a direct link between the company wanting to use cheap offshore labour to save money and me and my colleagues losing our jobs. The whole company has been hit by savage cost cutting measures and many redundancies after a new MD was brought in for this purpose.

Could I win in court and what could I get in compensation if I am victorious? Is fighting this folly?

Many thanks.
Mr O

AndyBSG

"is it worth fighting this in tribunal and risk losing the enhanced payment?"

Generally, no.

If you refuse to sign it then you will only get the statutory redundancy UNLESS you can prove in an industrial tribunal that the company have behaved incorrectly.

In the case of them relocating the jobs to India to cut costs then this is going to be very hard to prove as that's a valid reason.

You are perfectly entitled to seek legal advise and I recommend that you do that BEFORE you sign the compromise agreement but in all honesty I don't think you really have grounds for appeal

mrobsessed

Thanks for that.

But don't they have an obligation to protect my job and to justify giving the same work to someone else, therefore making me redundant? I believe they are obliged to offer me a similar positon where possible - (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006.

I assume all the convoluted legal jiggery-pokery is to protect themselves from this valid criticism - why would they bother with this expense if they weren't at risk of defaulting on their legal employer obligations? If I don't sign can I get them on this point?

getmore4less

previous thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4484201=


Nothing seems to have changed.

ET don't get involved in the business reasons behind redundancy.

Your job has(will be) gone. you on't be able to change that.


I am not sure what you think you can gain by fighting this?

mjm3346

Multi-nationals close/open plants/offices/labs etc in different countries as the business case dictates they have no obligation to favour your expensive job over a much cheaper one elsewhere.
If you challenge and get the expected result of defeat you lose all the extra money.
Not sure what you could gain by winning as your job is going whatever happens? I suppose you could hope for an unfair dismissal finding, but you would need any award from that to be quite a bit higher than the offer on the table now or it isn't worth the risk.

p00hsticks

mrobsessed wrote: »

But don't they have an obligation to protect my job and to justify giving the same work to someone else, therefore making me redundant?

It's perfectly legitimate for your job (as someone who makes widgets or whatever at location X) to become redundant and for a new job for someone to make widgets or whatever at location Y to be created in its place.

mrobsessed wrote: »

I believe they are obliged to offer me a similar positon where possible - (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006.

Only if there are any such positions available - and from the sound of it, there are not not.

mrobsessed wrote: »

Is fighting this folly?

In my opinion, sorry, but yes, it is.

mrobsessed

I have to get legal advice as part of the conditions of signing the agreement - work are paying for this.

For those that say giving my job to someone who can do it cheaper is pefectly normal and acceptable - why then are they going through this convoluted rigmarole that involves the company that is taking the work away signing my paperwork? Why are they even giving the enhanced settlement if they don't have to?

I appreciate the advice that I should take the money and run, but some of the legal processes in this strike me as somewhat bizarre and a tad supect. If there was no danger of legal ramifications like an unfair dismissal judgement why are they getting such watertight paperwork drawn up? They have admitted that it is to avoid legal ramifications later, so if they are in such a invulnerable positions why worry?

Thanks for all your help.
Mr O

getmore4less

They are still offering statutory redundancy if you don't sign.

so call their bluff and tell them to put you on notice of termination due to redundancy

I think you are reading far to much into the process they are using for the CA.

adding some more info

Plenty of places let people go on standard redunancy procedures without CA and give enhanced packages.

Jaffa_cake

In this day and age, international business will have the item or product or service made wherever it is cheaper.

Unfortunately there are people in the world who can and will do your job for far less than your expensive British wage.

If the business can get the item made in any other country, then you have to ask yourself, "why should they pay me several times as much, as some one in another country"

Hard but true.

Really nothing you can do, but to make the best of a poor situation.

Just be happy you got as much out of the company as you did, in so much, that it could have happened sooner.

JC

mrobsessed

getmore4less wrote: »

They are still offering statutory redundancy if you don't sign.

so call their bluff and tell them to put you on notice of termination due to redundancy

What will that accomplish? Are you saying I could do that to 'test the water' for not signing the compromise agreement? Despite my misgivings about this process I am still obviously worried about losing out on the enhanced payement.

getmore4less wrote: »

I think you are reading far to much into the process they are using for the CA.

Perhaps. But I am suspicious of the way they have changed their story throughout the process, and the way they are waiting until the eleventh hour until we see the final agreement and get legal advice - almost like they want to rush us out at the last minute to save themselves problems by not giving us time to investigate properly. They are leaving it to the last 12 days out of 5 and a half months since the redundancies were announced!

Thanks for your help.

getmore4less

You have had the same time to consult, come up with counter proposals, take legal advice to prepare any claim and make sure that the CA include the relevent stuff like agreed references.

The legal advice you get for the CA will be to tell you that you that with a CA you are giving up your rights to make a future claim and do you understand that.

Chances are they(legal advisor) will want more money(that you will have to pay) to look at any potential case. as a group you could all use the same employment solicitor for a view on any claim sharing hte cost.

Was any time spent as a group trying to negotiate a bigger enhanced payment.