Can you be refused a union rep for a disciplinary? At what point would you see an...

paulineb_2

Well all you can do and Id do it right now is object to the way this investigation has been carried out and without speaking to you and Id do it before any wheels start turning further on this disciplinary process.

Could you get your union rep to contact your employers?

Use_her_name

How can i prove anything though?

In the eyes of a law, i'm an adult, i signed the paper, therefore it's an accurate account of what has happened.
I'll say that they forced me to copy a pre-made statement & they'll then deny it. How can i prove anything else as my signature is right there? As far as i see it, i can't. So it'll be seen as me throwing wild accusations at my employers as retaliation.

Just because something can't be proven doesn't mean it didn't happen, but at the end of the day, proof is everything.

The truth of it all is i don't really know the system, what i can enforce & what i can't. I'm a few years out of school & still learning about things such as rights etc. I can try & be forceful saying i don't need to do XYZ, or you can't do XYZ, but when they start shouting me down & telling me it's in my interest to copy this because things could get very expensive for me & a lot of trouble if i don't, then i panic & think they must be right, so do as they say.

But the law isn't interested in that are they. Ignorance is not an excuse, despite nobody being born knowing their rights. How do you begin & where do you end? I could search for my rights in one scenario but miss them in a whole load more because i'm simply just not aware & there's many like me.

Sorry, going off on a tangent.

Not sure about that last part. I need to speak to them anyway, although based on what a co-worker said, it's going to be difficult to get them down in time, even with a 5 day delay.

Regards this 5 day delay....

If the letter is dated & received on a Monday (25th) & the meeting is say for Wednesday (27th) and i can delay it for 5 days ...... when does the delay commence? Monday or Wednesday?

I would assume Wednesday. Does this include the Wednesday or not?

To try cut it a bit short, my banking is that if the hearing is scheduled for Wednesday, i can delay it until the following Wednesday, but that they could force it on next Wednesday (3rd April). I couldn't delay it until the following Thursday.

Have i understood correct?

ohreally

Ask your TU rep to contact the employer and convene the hearing at a mutually agreed time.

In terms of your inclusion, or otherwise at the investigation stage, a decision to progress without speaking to you may have been taken in light of the facts surrounding the case.

Use_her_name

ohreally wrote: »

Ask your TU rep to contact the employer and convene the hearing at a mutually agreed time.

Is this a practice reserved for dismissal cases?

I only ask because co-workers have had to call on this union before, various times, but never for a dismissal. Each time theyv'e all had to postpone for the 5 days. In some cases the union couldn't be available even with postponement & the meeting was forced to go ahead.

In terms of your inclusion, or otherwise at the investigation stage, a decision to progress without speaking to you may have been taken in light of the facts surrounding the case.

Sorry if i'm being dim now, but what you said has gone over my head.

I was asked why i did it the wrong way & answered. They then claimed to go off & investigate, however instead of doing it themselves, they got another dept to investigate, who it turns out haven't done it well at all.

paulineb_2

I agree, you get the meeting postponed for a mutually agreeable time, I cant talk about the specifics of what you are going through really, because its you suffering at the end of the day but I can only say please dont be bullied into the meeting going ahead without a rep there and if it means that the meeting is delayed for a week or 10 days then so be it.

If you have concerns about the way this investigation was carried out then raise them now and raise them with your union rep, as I said earlier before the disciplinary goes any further. You have certain rights under law and yes some employers dont adhere to the law but if you have enough service for unfair dismissal and if you get the sack, a tribunal will look very closely at whether an employer followed a fair disciplinary process or not as the case may be.

It doesnt need to be 5 days delay, it could be more, its unreasonable to expect someone to turn up armed with representation at v short notice particularly if the rep hasnt heard anything to do with the case before and would need time to prepare and has other cases to deal with as well.

ohreally

Use_her_name wrote: »

Sorry if i'm being dim now, but what you said has gone over my head.

I apologise.

The investigation does not necessarily need to involve you if the situation is not complex and enough info is available to the investigating officers to form a clear outline of events.


And your not attending a dismissal, your being invited to attend a disciplinary hearing.

Use_her_name wrote: »

They then claimed to go off & investigate, however instead of doing it themselves, they got another dept to investigate

This is not unusual.

Use_her_name

paulineb wrote: »

and if it means that the meeting is delayed for a week or 10 days then so be it.

I was told by a co-worker (who was told by the same union i'm a member of) that you can only delay for 5 days, no longer. After this, the employers can force the hearing to go ahead regardless.

If you have concerns about the way this investigation was carried out then raise them now and raise them with your union rep,

I do & i will ...... but how can i prove anything? They pressured me into signing a false statement, but how can i prove that?

Proof is everything in these situations & i have NONE. Therefore technically it didn't happen, even though it did. It wont stop me raising it with my TU, but regardless - what is the point (don't worry, i'll still raise it) because i can't prove it.

Not only this - if we do raise it in the hearing, surely they'll go all guns blazing for me on that one.

ohreally wrote: »

I apologise.

The investigation does not necessarily need to involve you if the situation is not complex and enough info is available to the investigating officers to form a clear outline of events.

I don't expect it to involve me. I fully expect them to go asking other people without me being there.

Except they haven't.

The dept they asked to ask the questions haven't asked the questions. All they've done is said to my dept ... Do XYZ & make sure you do XYZ or you're in trouble. Any ABC is a no go.

No question of are you doing ABC, did you show Mr Mystery ABC, none of that.

So when i say i have been shown one way, they haven't even looked into whether this is true or not. They've told the rest of the dept how to do it properly & from that have said that all the dept do it properly & i'm the only one who doesn't.

Hardly fair/right.

And your not attending a dismissal, your being invited to attend a disciplinary hearing.

Which let's face it, is going to result in.....

Sorry to be negative. Though some will say i'm being negative, i'm just being realistic.

paulineb_2

If they force the hearing without you have representation, make sure that is recorded on paper and if you cannot get a union rep in the timescale, make sure you take someone, dont go in alone.

It sounds like they are going to go in all guns blazing anyway, what do you have to lose?

Also, Id be writing, or getting someone to write to your employer saying that you were dissatisfied with the way they investigation was handled.

If the worst comes to the worst, you have to start building a case in the event of you being sacked and taking this matter to tribunal.

I know what its like to be dismissed for something you havent done, lots of things you havent done. I know what its like to have my rights denied. I also know what its like when your health suffers because of all of the above. And Ive been through this twice, the last time being just before Christmas.

But all I know is, if you want to keep the job and like the job regardless of everything thats been done, you have to start fighting your corner and also if they have made their mind up and they are going to sack you anyway, this is the point where you need to be asking them why they havent investigated properly and why didnt they speak to you about this matter sooner and also, if theres a disciplinary procedure, it should be applied in the same way to all colleagues, people shouldnt be treated differently depending on whether managers or bosses like them for instance, but it happens.

I dont think people on here can give you exact answers, all I know from my own personal experience, regardless of whether Ive been unfairly hauled into a disciplinary and I have been in my working life, no matter whether I kept the job or not, I fought tooth and nail to bring my employer up short on the way they tried to treat me throughout the process.

Sometimes employees get treated like crap by employers, its horrible, stressful and you think you'll never get through it and theres all the worry about what you are going to do if you are sacked and Ive been there.

But things are never as bad as they seem. But you need to get advice, soon, very soon. From your union, raise your concerns with them about how this process has been handled to date. Try and get the meeting arranged for a time they can be there and dont whatever you do go into any meeting alone.

I cant advise any more than that, you need help from people who are paid to assist you, regardless of the outcome, if you fight it, you are doing something positive

You also have the right to appeal any sacking and have the appeal heard by people who had no part in any of the previous hearings.

LannieDuck

If you've signed something that suggests you've done wrong, then I'm afraid I don't think you stand much of a chance. How long have you worked there?

However, definitely get the union involved - if the disciplinary may result in dismissal, they should prioritise your case. There's also no harm in getting written statements from colleagues demonstrating that you only did things the way you were trained to do them.

Also, take yourself over to www.redundancyforum.co.uk (they deal with more than just redundancies), to get a professional opinion from an employment barrister... but be warned that SarEl doesn't sugar-coat what she says.

spacey2012

Putting your trust in the union is like trusting the clergy man that walks you to the gallows to get you off.
Those days are long gone.