Prepaid Credit Card refused (Orange/MasterCard)

Naf

simax wrote: »

But.... any retailer can choose not to accept a certain type of payment, that's my point. A case in point is on-line auth debit cards on planes/trains/pay@pump stations - they won't work. If a retailer want's to accept the risk of accepting these cards then they can make them work. Simple as that.

Are they what used to be Visa Electron and Solo? If so then it's a different payment method than typical Visa cards - even now it's Visa Online. But with the MC it all seems to be just MC, not different methods...

Naf

I'm not just trying to be argumentative (honest) but if they are not going to accept a payment method, then surely it needs to be that whole method; not just competitors cards? So even if prepaid MCs are a different payment method than other MCs; it still seems unfair.

dalesrider

Squelch_ wrote: »

A little more thought however, is if they refuse a payment method, then why do they on one hand display a logo advertising this as a valid payment method,

Just the same as these cards will not work in pay @ the pump petrol stations or some train ticket terminals.

Squelch_ wrote: »

and on the other, not clearly state any vetoed methods because of previous fraud? I cannot find any reference to Orange having been exposed to fraud, nor their policy against potential fraud. So far it's been word of mouth only, and now your assertion. Perhaps you can point me to where you draw this from?

This I find odd, as Orange just the same suffer card fraud ALL THE TIME. This is on normal debit/credt cards.
So the fraud excuse is a very weak one.

My personal take is they will not take prepay cards on the basis that they cannot auto take payments on them. Only a single top up. As it is possible that now funds would be avaiable in the future.

Vote with you feet and go to anohter network.

Squelch_

I'll concede that retailers do have the right to refuse custom, and certain payment methods for that matter, but doesn't that apply to certain payment methods as a whole, not one or a handful of banks or issuers?

In the first instance I was aggrieved with the treatment I received as an innocent party. The question of whether I continue to patronise Orange remains open, and dependent on when they decide to present the debit they manually processed to my account. I still have reservations over exactly how this was done.

It was only after I started to look into what the problem might be that I soon realised how shrouded the whole credit card industry is. In this case, and probably others, there is no information to be had over what is right and what is wrong. Not just at the point of transaction, but nowhere else that I've been able to find.

It's been pointed out that there may also be anti-competition issues here too. Again, information on this is missing or extremely hard to find.

I might be a little more understanding of the stance Orange have taken if I was attempting to gain credit services from them using such a card. I'm not! My Orange account and the prepaid CC are both registered to my home address. If I purchase items online, they will only be delivered to my home address until a trading relationship and verification of trust is established. Pre paying for mobile phone use is not far removed from purchasing any other item, so why can't the same rules principle apply?

Caveat emptor certainly brings a whole new meaning when it leads to embarrassment during payment, and only because of a lack of openness. If fraud is such a problem, then why the disparity between different card acceptances? How can one card be deemed more safe than any other? Are all of the security checks moot?

dalesrider

Squelch_ wrote: »

I'll concede that retailers do have the right to refuse custom, and certain payment methods for that matter, but doesn't that apply to certain payment methods as a whole, not one or a handful of banks or issuers?

A prepaid card is totally diffrent to a normal debit/credit card.

Squelch_ wrote: »

In the first instance I was aggrieved with the treatment I received as an innocent party. The question of whether I continue to patronise Orange remains open,

Your choice.

Squelch_ wrote: »

It was only after I started to look into what the problem might be that I soon realised how shrouded the whole credit card industry is. In this case, and probably others, there is no information to be had over what is right and what is wrong. Not just at the point of transaction, but nowhere else that I've been able to find.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

Squelch_ wrote: »

It's been pointed out that there may also be anti-competition issues here too. Again, information on this is missing or extremely hard to find.

What anit-competition?

Squelch_ wrote: »

I might be a little more understanding of the stance Orange have taken if I was attempting to gain credit services from them using such a card. I'm not! My Orange account and the prepaid CC are both registered to my home address.

So you say, but a PAYG could be used by anyone.

Squelch_ wrote: »

Pre paying for mobile phone use is not far removed from purchasing any other item, so why can't the same rules principle apply?

They do. As I said not ALL debit cards work in [EMAIL="Pay@Pump"]Pay @ Pump[/EMAIL]

Squelch_ wrote: »

If fraud is such a problem, then why the disparity between different card acceptances? How can one card be deemed more safe than any other? Are all of the security checks moot?

Think on this.

A prepaid card can be had by anyone, without any credit checks. So anyone can get one under anyname they want at any address in some cases.
So its a lot easier for fraud to happen.

Get prepay card. Top card up from stolen account details and then use that money to topup a phone or spend at a retailer. At the end Orange will be the one losing out as they will have to return the money to the card provider when fraud is confirmed.
Clearly this is something that they must get a lot off. hence their stance on these cards.

Naf

dalesrider wrote: »

...hence their stance on these cards.

But they accept their own? Which is equally susceptible to the same thing...

Squelch_

dalesrider wrote: »

A prepaid card is totally diffrent to a normal debit/credit card.

It's that so called "difference" that is the crux of the matter here. Nobody seems to have a definitive answer on what these differences are when it comes to making a payment through an approved system, other than the previous conjecture and opinion.

Your choice.

Agreed. Whilst the trigger for this discussion, it's supplemental to the thread.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

I'm pointing out the same conjecture versus lack of documented guidelines argument. ie. if I've broken the rules. then as a responsible citizen I want to make sure I don't do it again in future, so please tell me where they're written?

What anit-competition?

Again, difficult to define. An otherwise universal payment method (MasterCard) appears to have an unwritten subset not only in favour of a retailers own products, but also excluding others without reason. If not anti-competition, then certainly unfair practices that deserve scrutiny. I had the belief that the display of the logo indicates acceptance. On closer inspection, this isn't defined anywhere, and is a continuation of the previous point.

So you say, but a PAYG could be used by anyone.

I'm missing your point here. What's unique about a stolen PAYG over contract? To me the liability is simply limited to the funds available. The same applies to a prepay CC. The security implications are no different than any other.

They do. As I said not ALL debit cards work in Pay @ Pump

I was unaware of this, and I'm now forewarned. The reasoning behind this seems just as woolly over acceptance against non acceptance. Is it simply a case of one financial institution failing to recognise another? I was under the impression that these things were regulated, and passed through strict clearing. It seems the deeper one digs, the less one understands.

Think on this.

A prepaid card can be had by anyone, without any credit checks. So anyone can get one under anyname they want at any address in some cases.
So its a lot easier for fraud to happen.

I'm not sure it's as simplistic as that, or am I being naive? I was subjected to a vetting process before I was able to use my full CashPlus account. This included verification of identity, and address. I don't have experience of other cards. The differences between a prepaid card and a full credit card are that the prepay has limited funds, and it is not linked in any way to credit worthiness. Is a persons credit score an indicator of criminality? I sincerely hope not or we are in deeper trouble that I thought.

Get prepay card. Top card up from stolen account details and then use that money to topup a phone or spend at a retailer. At the end Orange will be the one losing out as they will have to return the money to the card provider when fraud is confirmed.
Clearly this is something that they must get a lot off. hence their stance on these cards.

You make a valid point concerning money laundering, but as I've already pointed out - I've been through the vetting process, I'm registered and verified on both accounts. I'm not seeking credit services, and I'm not attempting to make payment to a non typical account - another mobile phone account for example so in simple terms, where is the possibility of fraud here?

To come full circle. Despite my best efforts, I have been subjected to an inference that I am conducting illegal activities which in fact could be attempted a number of other ways. There seems to be too many assumptions - both on my part (and other consumers it seems) - and certain parties within the industry. I'm assuming a MasterCard logo allows me to pay with a MasterCard approved card, they're assuming I'm attempting criminal activities because they won't honour that particular card.

dalesrider

I was unaware of this, and I'm now forewarned. The reasoning behind this seems just as woolly over acceptance against non acceptance. Is it simply a case of one financial institution failing to recognise another? I was under the impression that these things were regulated, and passed through strict clearing. It seems the deeper one digs, the less one understands.

When you recieved your card it will have said that you can not use your card in certain situations.

Do a search for online/offline cards to muddy the waters more.

What the diffrence is some cards will need to authorise the full amount of the payment.
Pay @ Pump only auths for a small amount, then debits for the full amount later. So a Auth All card will not work. As the amount comming through is not the full amount. So the account can end up in a debit position.

Contactless is supposed to be a non auth process, idea being scan card and they will then process all payments at end of day. Yet I have a 02 contactless prepay card and that has to go for auth all the time. So this has to force online connection before payment can go through.

All this is something that is fully regulated and what type of card you get is upto the card provider and how they feel about you. Could almost say credit worthyness. But that is not strictly true.

Orange clearly have made a srance that they will not take any prepay cards unless they are provided by them. Perhaps that is on the basis that their supplied cards allow then to tie in nicely to a orange account.
Compared to someone who is using a external card.

Mobile co's chuck out SIM's by the bucket load now and if one is topped up by fraudlent use of ANY type of card. Then by the time orange get round to dealing. Then that SIM will have been dumped and they have lost the money.

Maybe they see more fraud via prepay cards, that I do not know as I do not work for Orange.
All I do know is every mobile co. See's a very large amount of card based fraud evey week against them.

My take is that mobile co's should go back to where even PAYG have to be registered to a address and that is checked. As well as having the payment method set up at that time.
Not go to shop buy phone and sim. Ring up tap a card number in and off you go.


Do not take it personally. This is just a decision they will have taken to stop losses.

Squelch_

Thank you dalerider for taking the time to explain things. It is most helpful. I now fully understand the pay @ pump problem, and can see why certain cards may be a problem. Your signature could never be more apt. Would I be right in saying that no fuel can be served until the card is approved? I mean is the card rejected when first put in?

The issue of which cards are accepted and which are not still remains. Displaying of a logo that advertises a universal method of payment, without also displaying what exceptions there are, is misleading to say the least. I wonder if there are any cases of people having bought goods/fuel, and then having their card refused because of this policy?

I've checked my cards details, and cannot find any reference that certain merchants will refuse. I have read suchlike on some other card providers sites however, but these appear to be different types of cards ie cash/gift cards.

It would be courteous if a retailer/merchant could display any exceptions they have - if it isn't already obligatory. I accept and would defend Orange's right to refuse certain payment methods, but only if they were to make this clear from the outset. This would save them the customer dissatisfaction that's apparent not just here, but in the previously cited incident a couple of years ago, so this is not exactly news to them.

The mobile market as a whole must take responsibility for its own misfortune if they on one hand dish out cards and phones without checks, and then cry foul when they are taken advantage of. I registered my PAYG phone with Orange at purchase, and this was the only method available to me at the time.

In an age that demands instant gratification, morals seem to have become blurred. I do take exception to being treated as a potential miscreant by an agent of said company because the company is selling consumer convenience without checks and balances, and then blaming the customer for problems.

dalesrider

Squelch_ wrote: »

Thank you dalerider for taking the time to explain things. It is most helpful. I now fully understand the pay @ pump problem, and can see why certain cards may be a problem. Your signature could never be more apt. Would I be right in saying that no fuel can be served until the card is approved? I mean is the card rejected when first put in?

Correct card is declined, so no fuel can be dispensed.

Squelch_ wrote: »

The issue of which cards are accepted and which are not still remains. Displaying of a logo that advertises a universal method of payment, without also displaying what exceptions there are, is misleading to say the least. I wonder if there are any cases of people having bought goods/fuel, and then having their card refused because of this policy?

No the logo simply says the retailer will take a card from that provider. NOT that they take ALL cards.

Any exceptions should be explained in the T/C or info from your card provider.
I know for a fact 02 clearly state that you cannot use a pay @ pump etc.

Squelch_ wrote: »

I've checked my cards details, and cannot find any reference that certain merchants will refuse.

Its not retailer based. Its the type of terminal. So while you may not be able to pay @ pump, you will be able to pay in the kiosk for your fuel.
Might be worth while giving your card provider a ring to see if there are any restrictions on transaction types.

Squelch_ wrote: »

It would be courteous if a retailer/merchant could display any exceptions they have - if it isn't already obligatory.

Not possible due to the nature of auth all cards and standard cards from the same providers. ( No's 5 & 6 of the card number) But this varies from card provider to card provider.
Only your card provider can give this info as to where your card will be declined.

Squelch_ wrote: »

I accept and would defend Orange's right to refuse certain payment methods, but only if they were to make this clear from the outset.

Yes. It would help if they stated upfront NO prepay cards can be used for top-up other than their won.